Author Topic: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.  (Read 3469 times)

Clare

  • Is home
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2021, 11:34:55 am »
i thought that Signal is a NFP foundation set up by a couple of people and run by the two founders and another bod none of whom are Elon Musk.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2021, 11:46:30 am »
i thought that Signal is a NFP foundation set up by a couple of people and run by the two founders and another bod none of whom are Elon Musk.

That is what I thought too.

As for the data, they could have all that Cudzo talks of, and far more, if the user lets them. This is the clash that Apple are having with app makers - they say it is the users choice as to what happens with the data. Facebook need the data - for that is where their value is.

This purports to show the differences in data collection between various messaging apps...

https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/04/app-privacy-labels-messaging-apps/
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2021, 12:00:49 pm »
I assume that if they could have it, they do, but they might choose not to use it unless they have it legally.

I definitely read somewhere that Signal was owned by Elon Musk. Perhaps he put up some capital for it?
Faster than a walk, slower than a train, often slightly higher than a person. (David Byrne)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2021, 12:08:54 pm »
I know he's endorsed it.  Wouldn't be surprised if he'd thrown a few dollarpounds at it.  But we already know that Elon Musk is eminently capable of making good engineering decisions when he isn't busy being a Space Karen.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2021, 12:19:21 pm »
I assume that if they could have it, they do, but they might choose not to use it unless they have it legally.

I definitely read somewhere that Signal was owned by Elon Musk. Perhaps he put up some capital for it?

Brian Acton one of founders of WhatsApp, upon leaving Facebook (not happy the way they wanted to take WhatsApp), put $50 million behind it, to found the Signal Foundation a non profit organisation.  Elon Musk nothing to do with it, though he did make a donation (just like you can) a year ago. He just recently endorsed Signal via a tweet which led to a surge of registrations etc.

Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2021, 12:38:37 pm »
I am intrigued by the fact that GDPR stops this happening in the EU and users there are expected to start subscribing with cash to continue to use WhatsApp.  Presumably then Wrexit has shit all over GDPR in the UK?

I shall move to Signal.  Certainly nothing to lose by doing so.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2021, 01:21:06 pm »
I assume that if they could have it, they do, but they might choose not to use it unless they have it legally.

Nope - the point (in iOS-sphere) is that they don't have the data unless the user has specifically said they can. Apple are enforcing this and it has produced squeals from the organisations that want your data to make money from, without your knowledge or permission.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Hot Flatus

  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2021, 01:24:50 pm »
Ordering a Pizza in 2022

CALLER:
    Is this Pizza Hut?
 
GOOGLE:   
No sir, it's Google Pizza.
 
CALLER: 
I must have dialed a wrong number, sorry.
 
GOOGLE: 
No sir, Google bought Pizza Hut last month.
 
CALLER: 
OK. I would like to order a pizza.
 
GOOGLE: 
Do you want your usual, sir?
 
CALLER:
My usual? You know me?
 
GOOGLE:
According to our caller ID data sheet, the last 12 times you called you ordered an extra-large pizza with three cheeses, sausage, pepperoni, mushrooms and meatballs on a thick crust.
 
CALLER: 
Super! That’s what I’ll have.
 
GOOGLE:
May I suggest that this time you order a pizza with ricotta, arugula, sun-dried tomatoes and olives on a whole wheat gluten-free thin crust?
 
CALLER: 
What? I don’t want a vegetarian pizza!
 
GOOGLE: 
Your cholesterol is not good, sir.
 
CALLER: 
How the hell do you know that?
 
GOOGLE:
Well, we cross-referenced your home phone number with your medical records. We have the result of your blood tests for the last 7 years.
 
CALLER:
Okay, but I do not want your rotten vegetarian pizza!  I already take medication for my cholesterol.
 
GOOGLE:
Excuse me sir, but you have not taken your medication regularly.  According to our database, you purchased only a box of 30 cholesterol tablets once at Lloyds Pharmacy, 4 months ago.
 
CALLER: 
I bought more from another Pharmacy.
 
GOOGLE: 
That doesn’t show on your credit card statement.
 
CALLER:
I paid in cash.
 
GOOGLE: 
But you did not withdraw enough cash according to your bank statement.
 
CALLER: 
I have other sources of cash.
 
GOOGLE:
That doesn’t show on your latest tax returns, unless you bought them using an undeclared income source, which is against the law!
 
CALLER:   
WHAT THE HELL!
 
GOOGLE: 
I'm sorry sir, we use such information only with the sole intention of helping you.
 
CALLER: 
Enough already!  I'm sick to death of Google, Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp and all the others.  I'm going to an island without the internet, TV, where there is no phone service and no one to watch me or spy on me.
 
GOOGLE:     
I understand sir, but you need to renew your passport first. It expired 6 weeks ago...

Welcome to the future 🤖c do

Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2021, 03:14:16 pm »

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2021, 11:36:03 am »
So, is Signal the collective's recommendation?

Signal is lovely. I've been using it for years. Tho in the last few days it's had a few issues. Apparently having your user base increase by a factor of 5 in 24 hours, is not a normal growth path.

No Signal is not owned by Elon Musk, and which ever moron is spreading that needs to be slapped.

Now, if you could all stop using whatsapp, and facebook, and move to signal, but do so over a few days so you don't DoS it for those of us who were already here. It's making it incredibly difficult for me to trick my housemate into making me tea, if the messages aren't arriving in approximately real time...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2021, 12:55:38 pm »

The mug of tea finally arrived...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2021, 01:50:26 pm »
I’ve been on Signal couple of years or so. My email is now encrypted on proton mail.

Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2021, 02:30:16 pm »
joining Signal because, why not. I'm curious how they will pay for it.

What really makes me laugh is irony of many of the complaints in the app comments like "Things to improve: 1. Doesn't show when people are online and last seen."

But of course, WE WANT PRIVACY......

ETA, and >50% of my contacts who have signal are from this place :D

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2021, 02:33:59 pm »
joining Signal because, why not. I'm curious how they will pay for it.

What really makes me laugh is irony of many of the complaints in the app comments like "Things to improve: 1. Doesn't show when people are online and last seen."

But of course, WE WANT PRIVACY......

How they will pay for it: https://signal.org/donate/

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2021, 03:36:39 pm »
joining Signal because, why not. I'm curious how they will pay for it.

What really makes me laugh is irony of many of the complaints in the app comments like "Things to improve: 1. Doesn't show when people are online and last seen."

But of course, WE WANT PRIVACY......

How they will pay for it: https://signal.org/donate/

J

Yeah, that'll work well to provide the infrastructure needed to support the level of service that people expect, for sure. The tooth fairy will probably ante up a fiver, too.


Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2021, 03:44:18 pm »
In exactly the same way that a small number of YACF'ers contribute to keep YACF going, people support youtubers with Patreon and other donations, so a small but potentially significant number of Signal users will contribute. 

Paying for a service is a very contentious format: look at all those angry fascists who complain on the BBC's HYS threads about having to pay for the BBC whilst they can have other content "free" and yet they are paying through the nose as a result of advertising and/or subscriptions.

If Signal is as secure and is not sharing user data then I would happy throw a few pounds occasionally for a good service.  After all, I pay for a Zoom account primarily for the uninterrupted evenings with friends and family.   

Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2021, 03:57:34 pm »
In exactly the same way that a small number of YACF'ers contribute to keep YACF going, people support youtubers with Patreon and other donations, so a small but potentially significant number of Signal users will contribute. 

Paying for a service is a very contentious format: look at all those angry fascists who complain on the BBC's HYS threads about having to pay for the BBC whilst they can have other content "free" and yet they are paying through the nose as a result of advertising and/or subscriptions.

If Signal is as secure and is not sharing user data then I would happy throw a few pounds occasionally for a good service.  After all, I pay for a Zoom account primarily for the uninterrupted evenings with friends and family.

The yacf model simply doesn't scale, it's been tried extensively. I'd pony up a quid or three for a service I think would be useful  and I'd use, but the truth is that the majority of people wouldn't. I won't be paying until I use it, for sure. The cost of the infrastructure and the network and security systems is extremely substantial, while the "average" user might pay for Sky sports ontheir TV because they see the value, or maybe zoom if they need the premium features, they will not pay for, say, a mail service.

(the bridging method is a free option with premium version, hard to see how that might work in the context of a messaging app, but not impossible. Once they have sufficient numbers, a membership route is the likely way, but non-members cannot be excluded)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2021, 04:39:05 pm »
Sad but true.  You can offer reasonably-priced services that are actually good, and eventually someone will come along offering free[1] ones with Danging Pigs, and the cool kids will switch to that, and if it becomes too popular they drag everyone else along with them. 

More relevant question: Are there enough people who care about security/privacy/open software to fund Signal for those who don't, simply so as not to have to join them on Whatsapp?


[1] As in Facebook.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2021, 04:49:49 pm »
No.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2021, 04:55:14 pm »
I think the best we can hope for is an early-noughties ecosystem where there was no clear winner, which caused people to think that interoperability and open standards might be a good idea.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2021, 05:00:37 pm »
Let me expand. My day job for many years is working out how much services cost for mega corporate entities, often built from scratch and the answer is always more than you think, which inevitably leads those corporation to take shortcuts on security and the like. Now, this service will be a prime target for hackers, witness what has just happened to Parler and those shortcuts would come back to bite. Hard.

So, I know two things. One is for sure, that is somewhere in the Signal HQ there will be a plan to "monetise", as I say, likely on a subscription but that can only happen once there is a sufficient userbase which is a long way out. Until then, free is the only option. The second thing is a guess of how much it would cost the user, which I would pitch at the £10/month,* or likely higher. That will put a LARGE proportion of users off using a not-free service, especially since they currently use Facebook. That number is somewhat bottom up and top down, as it is the kind of number (inc margin) I can see a system like that costing, and also it isn't dissimilar to the cycling app subs. Arguably, they have a higher requirement for support, but then the service expectation from a messaging service is higher.

*ETA So if 50% freeloaded (and that's more like 80% IRL) then the sub would have to be >£20/month - £50/month with 80% freeloaders

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2021, 05:23:23 pm »
Let me expand. My day job for many years is working out how much services cost for mega corporate entities, often built from scratch and the answer is always more than you think, which inevitably leads those corporation to take shortcuts on security and the like. Now, this service will be a prime target for hackers, witness what has just happened to Parler and those shortcuts would come back to bite. Hard.

So, I know two things. One is for sure, that is somewhere in the Signal HQ there will be a plan to "monetise", as I say, likely on a subscription but that can only happen once there is a sufficient userbase which is a long way out. Until then, free is the only option. The second thing is a guess of how much it would cost the user, which I would pitch at the £10/month,* or likely higher. That will put a LARGE proportion of users off using a not-free service, especially since they currently use Facebook. That number is somewhat bottom up and top down, as it is the kind of number (inc margin) I can see a system like that costing, and also it isn't dissimilar to the cycling app subs. Arguably, they have a higher requirement for support, but then the service expectation from a messaging service is higher.

*ETA So if 50% freeloaded (and that's more like 80% IRL) then the sub would have to be >£20/month - £50/month with 80% freeloaders

Please show your working. Or your dice rolls, which ever it is you used to derive these numbers.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2021, 05:35:44 pm »
No. The bottom up is derived from my experience and not shareable, the top down I've already stated.

The components that go to building the system are as follows:

Personnel: Developers, security, network, Service management, support, sales, management (technical and business). That's not going to come cheap, even if largely offshored. Assume all compute is cloud based. Overheads for the above.

Systems: Compute, storage. Let's stop there for a second because that's the only component that is needed in a yacf model. That's the easy bit and the only bit most people think of.

On top of that: Backup and recovery systems, a DR and business continuity plan and, likely, service. Compliance service. Security including DDOS protection, load balancing, payments systems, SIEM, network intrusion, witness recording probably. Network. A LOT of network. Software Licenses.





quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2021, 05:55:25 pm »
No. The bottom up is derived from my experience and not shareable, the top down I've already stated.

The components that go to building the system are as follows:

Personnel: Developers, security, network, Service management, support, sales, management (technical and business). That's not going to come cheap, even if largely offshored. Assume all compute is cloud based. Overheads for the above.

Systems: Compute, storage. Let's stop there for a second because that's the only component that is needed in a yacf model. That's the easy bit and the only bit most people think of.

On top of that: Backup and recovery systems, a DR and business continuity plan and, likely, service. Compliance service. Security including DDOS protection, load balancing, payments systems, SIEM, network intrusion, witness recording probably. Network. A LOT of network. Software Licenses..

Software licenses for an open source product?

Yes that lot are all costs, but, how have you taken those costs, and come to the conclusion that signal needs to charge €/£/$10 per user per month? They claim to have 20000000 users, so at $10 per month it would be 200,000,000 per month in revenue... I don't think they are spending TWO HUNDRED MILLION dollars per month to run the system. Even if every user paid €1 per month, that's still €20,000,000 per month. That's a very healthy profit, I doubt their costs are close to that.

Given the project was started with funding of $50,000,000. and is run as a non-profit org...

So, wanna roll your dice again and come up with a more reasonable number?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Change to Whatsapp T&C's - all data to be shared with Facebook.
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2021, 06:25:20 pm »
As someone else who spends a lot of time being told the product he's responsible for should be free or somehow significantly cheaper, I have a well-rehearsed 'well, let's work through the costs...' For the record, even if I point out in simple terms that there's a development team of sixty people to be paid, all the other business functions, the sales and marketing, legal, then all the capital expenditure (our Amazon bills are not small). Etc etc.

At the end of the day, nothing is free mostly because very few of us are willing to work for free.

I'm pretty sure that the number of people who actually care about privacy is small, and the number of those willing to pay for it, even smaller.
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