Author Topic: Boris Johnson "After Rome"  (Read 12541 times)

Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« on: December 07, 2008, 11:52:14 am »
In the programme last night (which was excellent, I never knew we in the west only know about Aristotle because his works were preserved by Islamic scholars in Baghdad!)  Bozza mentioned how Islam ought not be demonised as that would be simplistic, dishonest, and probably inflammatory. I wonder what he’d make of this:

“Islamaphobia is a natural reaction…it is the most viciously sectarian of religions…disgusting arrogance and condescension supported in Islamic texts…when is someobe gonna get medaeval on Islamic’s ass? ”

Oh, hang on, they’re his own words:

Boris Johnson On Islam | Anorak News

And those words appeared the day after the 7/7 bombs. Johnson’s either a racist idiot with a nasty tendency to Islamaphobia, or a hired journalistic prostitute, willing to do anything, even whip up hatred of muslims, in exchange for cash.

Boris had no idea he would become mayor of a multi-cultural city when he slagged of Islam. Rather than condemn the fanatical bombers, he maligned the entire Islam religion and claimed that muslims never condemn terrorism. He must have known that that was a gross lie, but he did his master’s work for them, then denied ever saying it in a radio broadcast.

Boris Johnson declaring that ‘Islam is the problem’ (The Spectator, 16 July 2005);

“When is someone going to get 18th century on Islam’s mediaeval ass?”

“The trouble with this disgusting arrogance and condescension is that it is widely supported in Koranic texts”

“it is widely supported in Koranic texts, and we look in vain for the enlightened Islamic teachers and preachers who will begin the process of reform.”

How can he support such false hateful comments like that?

Surely he can not hate Muslims that much?


Charlotte

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Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2008, 12:01:10 pm »
There's a difference between hating Muslims and hating their religion.

For me, hate is too strong a word, but I'll happily come out and say that I find Islam to be an iniquitous religion which in it's unreformed state, has no place in our modern, enlightened society.

“Islamaphobia is a natural reaction…it is the most viciously sectarian of religions…disgusting arrogance and condescension supported in Islamic texts…when is someobe gonna get medaeval on Islamic’s ass? ”

Though it pains me to admit it, I happen to agree with Johnson in this sentiment...
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Julian

  • samoture
Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2008, 12:04:04 pm »
Whole citations please, Spinnners.  ;)

Quote
    To any non-Muslim reader of the Koran, Islamophobia - fear of Islam - seems a natural reaction, and, indeed, exactly what that text is intended to provoke. Judged purely on its scripture - to say nothing of what is preached in the mosques - it is the most viciously sectarian of all religions in its heartlessness towards unbelievers. As the killer of Theo Van Gogh told his victim’s mother this week in a Dutch courtroom, he could not care for her, could not sympathise, because she was not a Muslim.

    The trouble with this disgusting arrogance and condescension is that it is widely supported in Koranic texts, and we look in vain for the enlightened Islamic teachers and preachers who will begin the process of reform. What is going on in these mosques and madrasas? When is someone going to get 18th century on Islam’s mediaeval ass?

That's a call for reform, not an incitement to invade.

Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2008, 12:09:18 pm »
After 7/7 most people were able to recognise that the actions of a handful of fanatics did not represent mainstream Islam. Muslim leaders were loud and strident in their condemnations of the terrorist attacks. Boris claimed no condemnation at all took place, and slagged of the entire faith rather than the few extremists. His words were dangerous, ignorant and inflammatory and completely and utterly at variance with what he said last night in the programme. And it wasn't even unwise ranting in the heat of the moment, Boris has a long history of denigrating and attacking Islam.

I don't think Boris is racist. I'm pretty sure from reading his filth that he's happy to pander to swivel-eyed racists in exchange for cash. I'm not sure which is worse.

Julian

  • samoture
Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2008, 12:14:18 pm »
It's not at variance with what he said in the programme (or at least not incompatible with the first one in the series; I didn't see last night's.)  Pointing out that Islam was in the 12th century responsible for a huge wodge of civilisation isn't at odds with pointing out that socially, it hasn't got much further and that it's due a bit of a renaissance (which we're beginning to see, incidentally, especially in Turkey).

Pancho

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Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2008, 12:15:21 pm »
Once, politicians and public figures feared that the media would selectively quote them and twist their intent. Now, Web 2.0 shows that the great global blogosphere is far more adept and spinning and twisting than mere newspapers ever were.

How many "..."s are there in the OPs quote?

Charlotte

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Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2008, 12:19:31 pm »
I don't think Boris is racist. I'm pretty sure from reading his filth that he's happy to pander to swivel-eyed racists in exchange for cash. I'm not sure which is worse.

Do me a favour!  I might disagree with Boris Johnson's policies, but he's not pandering to racists!  And certainly not for cash.

Besides, publicly condemning Islam isn't racism.  It's illegal (and rightly so) to incite religious hatred, but being publicly antipathetic towards a belief system which vindicates violence towards its opponents seems quite sensible to me.
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Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2008, 12:20:45 pm »

In the first radio hustings on LBC radio between the three main candidates, Mr Johnson insisted he would have issued "exactly the same" kind of remarks after the bombings, which killed 52 people, as Mr Livingstone had if he had been running the city at the time.

"What Londoners want in the event of a tragedy of that kind... is someone who will speak for the city and give a voice to our defiance and our unwillingness to submit to that kind of terror and kind of cowardly attack," he said.

However, the Mayor claimed: "I know what Boris would have said because he wrote it in the Spectator the following week. Very different. I said this is a criminal act by a handful of men. It doesn't define a faith or an ideology.

"What you said, Boris, was Islam was the problem... And the Koran is inherently violent. I actually made certain that we were looking at individuals. You smeared an entire faith."

An audibly furious Mr Johnson responded: "Can I tell you what deep offence I take at that? I think you really traduce what I said.

"My view is that Islam is a religion of peace and indeed I am very proud to say I have Muslim ancestors. "

Gloves are off as Ken accuses Boris of 7/7 smear on Islam | Mayor

And yet, Boris  did write:

‘Islam is the problem’ (The Spectator, 16 July 2005);

“When is someone going to get 18th century on Islam’s mediaeval ass?”

“The trouble with this disgusting arrogance and condescension is that it is widely supported in Koranic texts”

“it is widely supported in Koranic texts, and we look in vain for the enlightened Islamic teachers and preachers who will begin the process of reform.”

So, Boris has not only wildly altered his stance on Islam, he's lied about what he said and denied saying what's there in black and white!

Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2008, 12:23:24 pm »
he's not pandering to racists!

My view is that if somebody dishonestly claims that muslims do not condemn terrorism, summat Boris must have known is a lie, then he is pandering to the kind of gibbering, wet-lipped racists who read The Spectator, a magazine that, under Boris's editorship, claimed that West Indians are gangster who "breed like flies".


Julian

  • samoture
Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2008, 12:27:42 pm »
His 'Islam is the problem' article said that the turrists do have a scriptural basis for their beliefs - however much Islam is a religion of peace, and however much mainstream Islam distances itself from it, you can't turn to a turrist and tell them that there is no Koranic justification for their propensity towards blowing stuff up.  Because there is.

So he is right in saying it's widely supported in Koranic texts.  Have you read the Koran?  It's pretty clear on what should happen to the infidels.  

I don't think BoJo has ever said that the majority of Muslims share the views of the turrist, er, community.

Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2008, 12:40:04 pm »
however much mainstream Islam distances itself from it

Cast your eye upthread. Boris not only attacked the whole of Islam, he claimed that muslims do not condemn terrorism. 1 in 7 Londoners is a muslim, would Boris's words encourage them to feel safe and welcome in the city, or, like his attacks on Scousers and gays, likely to encourage hatred, resentment, and even more radicalisation?

Julian

  • samoture
Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2008, 12:43:55 pm »
Where did he say Muslims do not condemn terrorism?  I can't find that.

Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2008, 12:48:24 pm »
“it is widely supported in Koranic texts, and we look in vain for the enlightened Islamic teachers and preachers who will begin the process of reform.”

Saying that The Koranic texts represent the idealogy of mainstream muslims in the UK is like saying the myths about Zeus are responsible for the sexual incontinence of ancient Greeks. Saying that muslims, all muslims, support the violence contained in the Koran is wildly inflammatory.

Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2008, 12:52:20 pm »
Given the fact that about half the population of the Ottoman Empire was consisted of Christians and Jews and given that it's not more than about 60 years since the Christian Europeans more or less willing colluded with the Nazis to exterminate the Jews, I find it very very difficult to conclude that Islam is somehow inherently less tolerant to others than other religions.

Those who are familiar with the life and works of Juan Goytisolo will know that not so long ago being gay was much more tolerated in Morocco than in Spain; things aren't and weren't always so easy to categorise.

That said, it should be possible to condemn the strains within Islam which does advocate violence and intolerance without being accused of racism.



"Many, also, are the hills that lie between, and we must ascend, by a glorious stairway, from strength to strength."
- Petrarch, 'The Ascent of Mount Ventoux', 1336

Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2008, 01:05:55 pm »
“it is widely supported in Koranic texts, and we look in vain for the enlightened Islamic teachers and preachers who will begin the process of reform.”

Saying that The Koranic texts represent the idealogy of mainstream muslims in the UK is like saying the myths about Zeus are responsible for the sexual incontinence of ancient Greeks. Saying that muslims, all muslims, support the violence contained in the Koran is wildly inflammatory.

But he didn't say that.  He said that there aren't many clerics preaching reform. 

And just out of interest, what makes you think the ancient greeks were sexually incontinent?

Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2008, 01:17:36 pm »
He said that there aren't many clerics preaching reform. 

He said there is none. Two seconds on Google shows he's talking rot.

Charlotte

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Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2008, 03:53:31 pm »
Okay, a couple of points here:

Firstly, when Ayaan Hirsi Ali attacks Islam as a xenophobic creed of intolerance and misogyny, it's okay by us.  She may be seen as an apostate by the Islamic world, but by everyone else here in the west listens to her because she's not an Oxford educated, white, upper class toff.  When Bojo says exactly the same thing, he's vilified.

Secondly, Islam is the only world religion that I can think of that's not had a reformation of one kind or another.  When Bojo speaks of "getting 18the century on their medieval arses" he's not talking about attaching thumbscrews to Abu Hamza, you know.  He's talking about trying to see an ancient, feudal religion in the context of our enlightened modern world. 

Until Islam realises that much of what is contained in the Koran is morally and ethically unacceptable in the 21st century, we're all still going to point and laugh and call their prophet a paedo.
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Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2008, 04:41:40 pm »
we're all still going to point and laugh and call their prophet a paedo

Like Thomas Jefferson? 

The irony is that Johnson claimed people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali do not speak up. Johnson claimed to have "looked in vain" for people like her.

Charlotte

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Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2008, 04:45:21 pm »
If you like, yes.

People like Hirsi Ali don't tend to speak up very often.  Not because they're particularly thin on the ground, but because people keep murdering them.
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Julian

  • samoture
Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2008, 04:45:44 pm »
He was looking "in vain" for clerics, not individual women regarded as apostates by half the world.

Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2008, 06:02:33 pm »
"Many, also, are the hills that lie between, and we must ascend, by a glorious stairway, from strength to strength."
- Petrarch, 'The Ascent of Mount Ventoux', 1336

Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2008, 06:18:08 pm »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He was looking "in vain" for clerics


It has often been claimed in the media that Muslims are "silent" and do not condemn terrorism. This page is intended to refute that claim. Muslims have not been silent. Not even close. See also How American Muslims Really Responded to September 11 for more information about the Muslim response to 9/11. And another listing is at Statements Against Terror. Also Muslim Voices Against Terrorism. Related commentary at Friedman Wrong About Muslims Again , by Juan Cole and The Myth of Muslim Condemnation of Terror by Ali Eteraz.

 

Muslim Leaders

A Message from the Council on American-Islamic Relations

American Muslim Leaders Condemn Attacks

American Muslims Denouncing Terrorism

American Muslims and Scholars Denounce Terrorism on Anniversary of 9/11

Australian Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attack

Bin Laden Distorts Islam, Islamic Scholars Say

Bin Laden's Idea of 'Jihad' is Out of Bounds, Islamic Scholars Say

British Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

British Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

Canadian Muslims Condemn Terorist Attacks

Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass Murders

Islamic World Deplores U.S. Losses

Looking for Answers in Islam's Holy Book: What Islamic Scholars Have to Say

Muslim Reactions to Sept 11

Muslim Voices Against Extremism & Terrorism - Part II - Statements by Organizations

Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S.

Muslim rulers condemn WTC attacks

New Zealand Muslims Condemn Terrorism

Organization of the Islamic Conference Foreign Ministers Condemn International Terrorism

Quran a Book of Peace Not War, Islamic Scholars Say

Scholars of Islam Condemn Terrorism

Some American Muslims Take a Look at Their Communities' Shortcomings

U.S. Muslim Scholars Condemn Attacks

UK Muslim Leaders Condemn 'Lunatic Fringe'

When is jihad OK? Muslim Perspectives

 

Specific Muslim Scholars

A Common Word Between Us and You, by 130 Islamic scholars

Attacks on Civilians: Forbidden by Islam, by Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi

Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin Laden, by Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah

Bin Laden's Violence is a Heresy Against Islam, by AbdulHakim Murad (Tim Winter)

Defending the Civilians (a fatwa against terrorism), by Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti

Expert Says Islam Prohibits Violence Against Innocents, by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Condemns Suicide Bombings, by Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi

High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden, by Russian Muslim leaders

Iran's Supreme Leader Condemns Attacks on U.S., by Ayatollah Ali Khamanei

Islam and the Question of Violence, by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Iranian scholar

Jihad and the Modern World, by Dr. Sherman Jackson

Jihad: Its True Meaning and Purpose, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui

Most Prominent Sunni Muslim Scholar Condemns Killing of Civilians, by Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University

Muslim Attitudes about Violence, by Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid

Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part I - Fatwas, by various scholars

Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part IV A few Quotes, by various scholars

On the Terrorist Attacks, by Imam Zaid Shakir

Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden, by Tahir ul Qadri

Reclaiming Islam from the Terrorists, by AbdulHakim Murad, British scholar

Reflections on the National Horror of September 11, 2001, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui

Refutation of Bin Laden's Defense of Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar

Response to a Question about Islam and Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar

Saudi Clerics Condemn Terrorism, by Sheikh Abderrahman al-Sudayes

Saudi Grand Mufti Condemns Terrorist Attacks in U.S., by Shaikh Abdulaziz Al-Ashaikh

Scholars' Statements Regarding The Attacks In The United States, by Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Aali-Shaykh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and President of the Committee of Senior Scholars, and Shaykh Saleh Al-Lehaydaan, Chief Justice Of The Saudi Arabian Judiciary, and Shaykh Dr. Saaleh Ibn Ghaanem As-Sadlaan, Pres. Higher Studies Dept. Al-Imaam Muhammd Ibn Saud Islamic University

Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin Laden, by Spanish Muslim leaders

Terrorism Is at Odds With Islamic Tradition, by Khaled Abou El Fadl

Terrorism: Not a doorway to heaven, by Jamil Abdul Razzak Hajoo, of Idriss Mosque, Seattle


So, will they be heard? Ibrahim Hooper certainly hopes so.

As communications director of the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, he drafted the condemnation statement immediately after 9/11. It was published, among other places, as a full-page ad in The Washington Post. Then, Hooper spent the next three-plus years hearing angry talk that Muslims hadn't spoken out.

"It's one of the things we still hear: 'Why won't Muslims condemn terrorism?'" he was saying at week's end.

"When I go on a radio talk show, that is the first thing that I hear. That's just not true. Muslims - not only CAIR but all the groups - have been condemning terrorism for years. Some people just don't want to hear it."

So Muslims have to keep trying, he said. "Whenever we have the opportunity, we'll say it again. 'We denounce it. We denounce it.' We are hoping to be heard this time."


Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2008, 06:19:00 pm »
Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

In short, Johnson was talking dishonest, irresponsible and inflammatory crap.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2008, 07:55:35 am »
Give up folks....

Haven't you yet learned that BoJo is the fount of all evil ?  Never mind what he actually said, it's what he 'obviously thinking' that is important, you poor, misguided fools...




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Re: Boris Johnson "After Rome"
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2008, 09:05:32 am »
What a spectacularly ignorant and irrelevant post. If you can't put forward a reasonable argument then invent a straw man, resort to hyperbole and a scummy /dishonest misrepresentation of what was said, eh? Muppet.