Author Topic: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like  (Read 22833 times)

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #75 on: 08 August, 2023, 04:58:23 pm »
You need an airing cupboard, basically.  All those people who used the space for something else after they fitted combi boilers, or in newer houses that never had one at all, are going to have issues.  Looking around my estate, where most of the overflow pipes have been removed, I would guess few 2 or 3 bed houses have stored water now.

You can, of course, have instantaneous electric water heating - it's been around for decades - but it's ruinously expensive, beng resistance heating.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #76 on: 08 August, 2023, 05:32:59 pm »
IIRC the Octopus webby SCIENCE wants you to have space to park a motorbike, which in many cases people have not got.  It doesn't have the subtlety to consider alternative positions for the external unit.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #77 on: 08 August, 2023, 06:10:39 pm »
But imagine how much more space there would be on the streets if all the cars were replaced by motorbikes!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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    • Fediverse
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #78 on: 08 August, 2023, 06:22:55 pm »
Heat-pumps disguised as parked cars?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #79 on: 08 August, 2023, 06:28:51 pm »
On the pavements, then.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #80 on: 08 August, 2023, 06:37:24 pm »
Electric ones, to disguise the plumbing.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #81 on: 08 August, 2023, 07:56:50 pm »
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).

Not at all. You could install an air/air heat pump just fine.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #82 on: 08 August, 2023, 08:10:30 pm »
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).

Not at all. You could install an air/air heat pump just fine.

Though those tend not to attract subsidies, on account of being reversible...

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #83 on: 08 August, 2023, 08:14:35 pm »
Also you need space/access/permission for an outdoor radiator. And a cooperative landlord. And few enough rooms that they can be fed by a couple of ceiling units. And not be bothered by the noise. And suitable electricity supply. And some solution to DHW. And so on.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #84 on: 08 August, 2023, 08:39:55 pm »
Also you need space/access/permission for an outdoor radiator. And a cooperative landlord. And few enough rooms that they can be fed by a couple of ceiling units. And not be bothered by the noise. And suitable electricity supply. And some solution to DHW. And so on.

That is very different from "my house is too small to have a heat pump"

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #85 on: 08 August, 2023, 09:55:55 pm »
As heat pumps are far more expensive and really need major work done to the house (much bigger rads or underfloor heating) for efficient and effective operation, won't everyone without mains gas just keep flogging old oil boilers as long as they possibly can?  Typically they are used to heat older, rural, houses which are much less easy to upgrade.

I thought they'd at least harmonise the sunset dates for gas and oil.  Heat pumps absolutely terrify me.

Had a heat pump for 9 years now, after replacing an oil fired combi boiler as no gas supply in the village.  This is a 1930s detached bungalow with more modern extensions.  Had to upgrade the energy efficiency of the house first but tbh all stuff any sensible person will already have done by now.  We had to add some extra loft insulation to bring it up to the standards at the time from the 100mm or less it had in place, replaced missing draught excluder strips, adjusted leaky doors and windows to fit the openings correctly and upgrade the halogen lights to led.  All these measures were sorted in a weekend of DIY and would have paid for themselves within a couple of years regardless of the heating system used.

The heat pump installer did the calculations for heat requirements of each room and recommended I upgraded 3 rads to larger sizes, I kept the same dimensions just replaced singles with doubles/triples. Not a difficult diy job or a massive cost although I had the installer do it in the end because I took the opportunity to have them move a couple of other rad locations while they were at it to ease later building work that I had planned.  The biggest cost apart from the pump itself was installing a hot water cylinder which the house did not previously have.  Our biggest complaint about the oil fired combi was that it simply couldn’t produce a decent hot shower at more than a trickle.  Whatever solution we chose had to solve this problem which means I massively overspec’ed the tank to keep Mrs JellyLegs happy and probably doubled the cost of that element.

The heat pump was significantly more expensive than a replacement oil boiler but the RHI payments over 7 years pretty much covered the full cost of the installation plus a chunk of the additional plumbing work I detailed above as well.  The annual running costs of the heating for the 9 years have proved to be slightly less than the cost of the oil it replaced, with no need for a smelly oil tank or oil boiler, and no worries about theft of the oil or oil leaks.  The heat pump has less of a footprint than the oil tank although in a different location and the hot water cylinder sits where the boiler previously lived.

Once we got used to the different way of using it, and a faulty part was rectified which could have as easily been a faulty boiler part, the heat pump works very well, no real issues with getting adequate heat or hot water, even in the coldest winter we have had.

Of course, that’s my experience only, your mileage may vary but I would have no qualms about going with a heat pump again if I moved house.

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #86 on: 08 August, 2023, 11:29:57 pm »
Jelly legs. Interesting. I am currently at the very early stages of planning to upgrade our own house to a combined heat pump/ gas boiler in 2 years when we return. We have some underfloor and I know 2 areas where I need to add insulation and larger radiators probably with forced convection. We also have a large very efficient wood burner which can have fan assisted convection added.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #87 on: 09 August, 2023, 07:11:05 am »
I don't think RHI payments are still a thing, are they?
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #88 on: 09 August, 2023, 07:35:41 am »
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).

Not at all. You could install an air/air heat pump just fine.

J
Tell me more.

HTFB

  • The Monkey and the Plywood Violin
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #89 on: 09 August, 2023, 10:45:40 am »
I don't think RHI payments are still a thing, are they?
Not the RHI. Instead the Boiler Upgrade Scheme is an up-front £5,000 grant for an air source heat pump (or biomass boiler, under certain restrictions). Or even £6,000 for a ground source pump. It leaves you several £k out of pocket compared with a replacement combi boiler. And you do need a cupboard for the water tank.

There is a point about design work going on to make heat pump installations suitable for small homes: you can save quite a bit by simplifying the pipework and letting the heat pump unit do all the pumping. But there are issues (to do with multiple heating zones, possibly?). Heat-pump-installer-twitter has occasional disagreement about this stuff and best practice doesn't seem to have settled down.

Have we done radiator fans? It's a bit inelegant but if your existing radiators are a bit small for low-temperature heating you can increase their output by blowing the air through.

So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).
There's no home that can't be heated with a heat pump, the question is at what cost.
Not especially helpful or mature

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #90 on: 09 August, 2023, 10:50:52 am »

Tell me more.

https://www.orionairsales.co.uk/mitsubishi-heavy-industrial-air-conditioning-srk35zsp-w-wall-heat-pump-35kw12000btu-r32-240v50hz-11233-p.asp

Something like this. Added bonus of cooling in the summer if you wish to spend the energy.

They also have models that have one exterior unit and multiple indoor units.

Has to be installed by a professional installer cos of the refrigerant. Tho there's talk Hitachi are gonna release one that uses propane as it's refrigerant specifically for the DIY installation market.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #91 on: 09 August, 2023, 11:13:48 am »
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).
There's no home that can't be heated with a heat pump, the question is at what cost.

De Sisti said 'fitted'.

The will certainly be true. How would you fit a heat pump to a terrace in a row that is listed? You won't be permitted to fit one to the exterior of the building, or in front of it.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #92 on: 09 August, 2023, 12:02:28 pm »


Tell me more.


https://www.orionairsales.co.uk/mitsubishi-heavy-industrial-air-conditioning-srk35zsp-w-wall-heat-pump-35kw12000btu-r32-240v50hz-11233-p.asp

Something like this. Added bonus of cooling in the summer if you wish to spend the energy.

They also have models that have one exterior unit and multiple indoor units.

Has to be installed by a professional installer cos of the refrigerant. Tho there's talk Hitachi are gonna release one that uses propane as it's refrigerant specifically for the DIY installation market.

J
Octopus have just replied to me and said they only fit air-source heat pumps

Hi Michael,
Thanks for your inquiry. The space requirement for the water cylinder is 1m x 1m x 2m. The heat pump requires 1m in front of the unit and roughly the same to each side. We only install air source heat pumps so we couldn't recommend another type. Do you think you may have space for a water cylinder and air source heat pump?
We'd love to help if possible!
OES🐙

Perhaps a new Worcester Bosch combi boiler in 2034? I'm sure spares will be available for several years after installation.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #93 on: 09 August, 2023, 12:13:10 pm »

Octopus have just replied to me and said they only fit air-source heat pumps

Hi Michael,
Thanks for your inquiry. The space requirement for the water cylinder is 1m x 1m x 2m. The heat pump requires 1m in front of the unit and roughly the same to each side. We only install air source heat pumps so we couldn't recommend another type. Do you think you may have space for a water cylinder and air source heat pump?
We'd love to help if possible!
OES🐙

Perhaps a new Worcester Bosch combi boiler in 2034? I'm sure spares will be available for several years after installation.

You can have a solution installed by someone other tha octopus. It's electricity, not a Mac.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #94 on: 09 August, 2023, 12:17:55 pm »
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).
There's no home that can't be heated with a heat pump, the question is at what cost.

De Sisti said 'fitted'.

The will certainly be true. How would you fit a heat pump to a terrace in a row that is listed? You won't be permitted to fit one to the exterior of the building, or in front of it.

Ground source with a borehole, if (big if) it's practical to get the drilling equipment in place.

No doubt at some point someone will come up with an air-source heat pump that's installed internally and breathes through something we're conveniently blind to, like a balanced flue or a chimney.  Bonus points for flow temperatures in the high 70s and fitting the envelope of a traditional combi boiler...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #95 on: 09 August, 2023, 12:58:24 pm »


Ground source with a borehole, if (big if) it's practical to get the drilling equipment in place.

No doubt at some point someone will come up with an air-source heat pump that's installed internally and breathes through something we're conveniently blind to, like a balanced flue or a chimney.  Bonus points for flow temperatures in the high 70s and fitting the envelope of a traditional combi boiler...

Actually. The trick for a terrace house is to not think in terms of house. But in terms of houses. When they are all lined up neatly in a row that's a perfect use case for district heating. Install one large ground source heat pump at the end of the street, run the flow and return under the pavement or if available cycle lane (to allow any leaked heat to help reduce icing on the surface), and then you can just run a pair of pipes into each house. Problem solved.

I know this flies in the face of the everyone for themselves attitude to surviving the impending apocalypse that our govern and many peoy believe is the solution. But really. Work together and this problem is a lot easier to solve.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #96 on: 09 August, 2023, 12:59:39 pm »
Yeahbut this is BRITAIN.  Half the houses are owned by rich people who don't give a shit about  a) their tenants  or  b) decarbonising

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #97 on: 09 August, 2023, 01:05:06 pm »
Once again, you can't get there from here. First you have to get rid of here (and 'here' is not a place or even a time).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #98 on: 09 August, 2023, 01:06:26 pm »
Yeahbut this is BRITAIN.  Half the houses are owned by rich people who don't give a shit about  a) their tenants  or  b) decarbonising

Once again, you can't get there from here. First you have to get rid of here (and 'here' is not a place or even a time).

I think it's time we seriously considered turning Britain off.

Certainly south of Hadrian's wall anyway.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #99 on: 09 August, 2023, 01:16:02 pm »
Selling it off, maybe...