Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like

[Cudzoziemiec]

On the contrary. Part of the problem is that we've already sold it off and then turned it off.

But we are where we are, and where we are is here. We may be heading there, but we don't know how or even why, so just don't go there. As David Birne once sang, "It's over there, it's over there." Is it over here?

[JellyLegs]

I don't think RHI payments are still a thing, are they?

Possibly not.  The scheme changed name / details once while I was applying and again soon after which meant my payment changed somehow though I don’t remember exact details.

[JellyLegs]

So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).

There's no home that can't be heated with a heat pump, the question is at what cost.

De Sisti said 'fitted'.

The will certainly be true. How would you fit a heat pump to a terrace in a row that is listed? You won't be permitted to fit one to the exterior of the building, or in front of it.

No, though you also wouldn’t necessarily be able to fit a new gas boiler either.  They now need condensate / flue pipe work to breach the external wall which in theory will need listed building consent.  My in-laws’ boiler that had to be installed in the detached garage and pipe work run under the drive and into the house below ground level for this very reason.

[Kim]

The condensate pipe can be routed to an existing drain internally.

[HTFB]

Actually. The trick for a terrace house is to not think in terms of house. But in terms of houses. When they are all lined up neatly in a row that's a perfect use case for district heating. Install one large ground source heat pump at the end of the street, run the flow and return under the pavement or if available cycle lane (to allow any leaked heat to help reduce icing on the surface), and then you can just run a pair of pipes into each house. Problem solved.

I know this flies in the face of the everyone for themselves attitude to surviving the impending apocalypse that our govern and many peoy believe is the solution. But really. Work together and this problem is a lot easier to solve.

J

This personne speaketh sooth.

[HTFB]

Yeahbut this is BRITAIN.  Half the houses are owned by rich people who don't give a shit about  a) their tenants  or  b) decarbonising

Landlords are fairly easy to deal with, because we can forbid them from letting the property unless it's at a decent standard. Obviously decency doesn't run to the living conditions for the actual residents, but we can at least make the buildings a bit more efficient.

The problems are more with owner-occupiers, who don't want to turn their home upside-down while they are living there, and can't afford to move out for months. Or they are very old and can't possibly cope with the upheaval. When they die the house is naturally vacant but the heirs can't afford to do the place up until they have sold. Also people are dying far too rarely for us to make real progress.

[Mr Larrington]

Yeahbut this is BRITAIN.  Half the houses are owned by rich people who don't give a shit about  a) their tenants  or  b) decarbonising

Landlords are fairly easy to deal with, because we can forbid them from letting the property unless it's at a decent standard. Obviously decency doesn't run to the living conditions for the actual residents, but we can at least make the buildings a bit more efficient.

Except that the part of “we” responsible for enacting the required legislation is also a landlord in its copious free time and is vanishingly unlikely to pass any laws that detract from their bottom line.

See also: cladding, unsafe, removal of.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I thought houses had energy ratings when sold now, but not, I note, when rented.

[HTFB]

I thought houses had energy ratings when sold now, but not, I note, when rented.

You need an energy performance certificate to either sell or rent, and currently to rent it needs to be band E or better (or exempted); government policy is gradually to range that E to a C.

[grams]

The other problem with the terraced example is that you need everyone to have knackered boilers that need replacing. If any of them have paid £££ to have a new one put in, in say, the last 5 years, good luck.

[JellyLegs]

The condensate pipe can be routed to an existing drain internally.

That’s what I would have thought sensibly but it’s definitely not what the parents in law were told nor what my mum was told, hence the need in her case for unsightly pipe work* running round 2 sides of the kitchen rather than 6 inches to the right of the boiler.

* Note to self - I really must get around to neatly boxing that in before she strips me of the inheritance.

[Kim]

The condensate pipe can be routed to an existing drain internally.

That’s what I would have thought sensibly but it’s definitely not what the parents in law were told nor what my mum was told, hence the need in her case for unsightly pipe work* running round 2 sides of the kitchen rather than 6 inches to the right of the boiler.

* Note to self - I really must get around to neatly boxing that in before she strips me of the inheritance.

I think this may be a moving goalpost.  Past wisdom has been that the condensate pipe isn't allowed to breathe indoor air, as flue gasses may be present.  I think more recent boilers avoid this by means of an internal u-bend arrangement, as plumbing them internally has overwhelming advantages when it comes to the condensate not freezing.  Ours is plumbed into the washing machine drain below the boiler.

[phantasmagoriana]

So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).

There's no home that can't be heated with a heat pump, the question is at what cost.

De Sisti said 'fitted'.

The will certainly be true. How would you fit a heat pump to a terrace in a row that is listed? You won't be permitted to fit one to the exterior of the building, or in front of it.

Or flats. I'm ground floor, but even then I'm not allowed to fix anything to the outside of the building or install anything in the communal garden.

[felstedrider]

Whilst there’s some really useful info here, is there a chance we can split the heat pump discussion into a separate thread ?

[quixoticgeek]

The other problem with the terraced example is that you need everyone to have knackered boilers that need replacing. If any of them have paid £££ to have a new one put in, in say, the last 5 years, good luck.

No you don't.

"Hello we'd like to give you €500 and install this heat exchanger where your old boiler was. It will require we run 2 pipes from the pavement to the heat exchanger. Afterwards it will save you lots of money every year. "

J

[quixoticgeek]

Or flats. I'm ground floor, but even then I'm not allowed to fix anything to the outside of the building or install anything in the communal garden.

Apartment blocks are yet another perfect use case for a communal system. Even better if it's off District heating.

I live in an apartment block. We have a central heat exchanger in the basement that feeds communal circuits (one per side of a staircase). Right now it uses waste heat from industry. But it could easily be driven by a bloody huge heat pump.

Note, in the city of London they have such huge heat pumps. With big ground source bore holes. Very efficient.

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

District heating FTW. And waste heat from industry is surely even more environmentally pleasant than a heat pump (better would be that the industry produced no waste heat, obviously, but given that it does). District heating is common in Polish cities, but usually coal-fired and not efficient (you can trace the route of the pipes by following where the snow melts); it's 1980s technology from the communist era. A system is currently being installed in central Bristol; I can't find out how it's to be powered but apparently there is a large water-source heat pump in Cumberland Basin (western end of the city docks).

[felstedrider]

District heating FTW. And waste heat from industry is surely even more environmentally pleasant than a heat pump (better would be that the industry produced no waste heat, obviously, but given that it does). District heating is common in Polish cities, but usually coal-fired and not efficient (you can trace the route of the pipes by following where the snow melts); it's 1980s technology from the communist era. A system is currently being installed in central Bristol; I can't find out how it's to be powered but apparently there is a large water-source heat pump in Cumberland Basin (western end of the city docks).

Nottingham has something like that.

Good to see Bristol still working on something after the clusterf**k that was their entry into the supply market.

[ian]

The condensate pipe can be routed to an existing drain internally.

That’s what I would have thought sensibly but it’s definitely not what the parents in law were told nor what my mum was told, hence the need in her case for unsightly pipe work* running round 2 sides of the kitchen rather than 6 inches to the right of the boiler.

* Note to self - I really must get around to neatly boxing that in before she strips me of the inheritance.

I think this may be a moving goalpost.  Past wisdom has been that the condensate pipe isn't allowed to breathe indoor air, as flue gasses may be present.  I think more recent boilers avoid this by means of an internal u-bend arrangement, as plumbing them internally has overwhelming advantages when it comes to the condensate not freezing.  Ours is plumbed into the washing machine drain below the boiler.

Our last place had this. Seemed ok. Unlike the internal flue, for which we had to have several inspection hatches fitted.

[Mrs Pingu]

Yes, I know it's Twitter, but chimney heat pumps in NL:
https://twitter.com/Chris_Carus/status/1689756927461355520

[ian]

If we want people to fit heat pumps etc. then it has to be an order of magnitude easier and straightforward. I'm not doing weeks of research and then praying I find an engineer that knows what he's doing, then actually turns up and does a good job (challenge enough for a gas boiler). I'm happy enough with our 18-year-old ish boiler and tank.

[HTFB]

If we want people to fit heat pumps etc. then it has to be an order of magnitude easier and straightforward. I'm not doing weeks of research and then praying I find an engineer that knows what he's doing, then actually turns up and does a good job (challenge enough for a gas boiler). I'm happy enough with our 18-year-old ish boiler and tank.

You are a fount of common sense. I can point you to a good installer, in my private capacity, but that doesn't scale.

[rogerzilla]

New caps are

6.89p for gas (from 7.5p)
27.35p for electric (from 30.1p)

Standing charge caps have actually crept up a tiny bit (haven't we paid for Bulb by now?):

29.62p for gas (from 29p)
53.37p for electric (from 53p)

As there's no £400 grant, this winter is going to cost almost everyone more than 2022/23, and nothing has been done about non-gas generators being massively overpaid for what they produce.

As a low user, the standing charges are 27% of my annual spend.  That's bonkers.

[sojournermike]

If we want people to fit heat pumps etc. then it has to be an order of magnitude easier and straightforward. I'm not doing weeks of research and then praying I find an engineer that knows what he's doing, then actually turns up and does a good job (challenge enough for a gas boiler). I'm happy enough with our 18-year-old ish boiler and tank.

You are a fount of common sense. I can point you to a good installer, in my private capacity, but that doesn't scale.

You could point me to a good installer if you know any in North Yorkshire?

PM is private.

Mike

[sojournermike]

If we want people to fit heat pumps etc. then it has to be an order of magnitude easier and straightforward. I'm not doing weeks of research and then praying I find an engineer that knows what he's doing, then actually turns up and does a good job (challenge enough for a gas boiler). I'm happy enough with our 18-year-old ish boiler and tank.

Finding someone who will turn up and do a good job is pretty hard in many fields these days. There are plenty of people who can competently and install condensing boiler but still set up flow temperatures that mean it won’t condense…