Author Topic: WOOT a GPS  (Read 18201 times)

Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2009, 10:31:27 am »
Here's a question I've not yet found the answer to.

If navigating an audax for example, and it's split into, say, 10 sections, after having been
downloaded from Bikely to Tracklogs, then loaded in the gps as a route. Would there be a
seamless transition from one of the sections to another, or would one have to press the
navigate button for each part to be navigated?


frankly frankie

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Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2009, 10:39:28 am »
2. Won't tell me which turn I need to take unless I tell it beforehand

You want to trust a ¬£200 toy rather than your own good judgement?  See you in Timbuktu pal!
;- )

In addition to everything that's said so far:
NB in follow road mode you have a max of 50 points per route.  Which is a lot, actually.
Don't program routes that make a circle or cross themselves (figure of eight) - split these into 2 or more routes, to avoid that situation.
When checking in advance, general playing around with settings, etc etc - turn the GPS sat polling off.  You don't need it to know where you are now.
If you download someone else's route for use on an event - you need to use it in the same mode it was designed for - either follow road or off road - you need to know, and you need to be able to switch between these modes easily.

Personally I don't use follow road much, but I do think it works well in towns - for finding a station or a hospital - much less so in open country, where if it does make a mistake your legs might pay in many spurious kms ridden or metres climbed.

To maander - if you load it as 10 routes, you will need to load each route in turn, on the GPS. It only displays one at a time.  So split them at controls.  If you load it as 10 tracks, yes they can all display at once and appear seamlesse
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: GPS for Dummies
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2009, 10:44:56 am »
Does the gdb file contain a 'Route' - or a 'Track'  ??

[edit] but you can also improve the track-following by going into the Track menu and opting for 'Trackback' - this will generate prompts at any turn (deviation in the track) greater than about 30 degrees.


If following a track and you choose the 'trackback' option, do you not have to click onto
a point of the track where you want to trackback to rather than just following the
whole of the track?

frankly frankie

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Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2009, 10:57:52 am »
Yes you have to scroll to 'the other end' of the track.  It does seem a bit of a faff but OTOH just sticking a track in is by far the easiest and quickest way of programming the GPS in the 1st place.
So doing this is, IMO, the no-frills way of getting GPS 'smarts' - navigation with turn prompts, 'distance to next', etc etc.
You can do better but only with more prep.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2009, 11:01:07 am »
Here's a question I've not yet found the answer to.

If navigating an audax for example, and it's split into, say, 10 sections, after having been
downloaded from Bikely to Tracklogs, then loaded in the gps as a route. Would there be a
seamless transition from one of the sections to another, or would one have to press the
navigate button for each part to be navigated?



Yes you have to tell it to navigate each section individually.

I usually split routes at controls, so selecting a new route is just another thing you do at a control.  It means you don't have to stop when riding.

Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2009, 11:27:22 am »
I use routes rather than faffing with tracks. As FF says, it's more prep time but I prefer the correlation between GPS and routesheet as I generally use one routepoint per routesheet instruction.

Occasionally I have to add a couple of extra routepoints just to make the arrow point in the right direction at a junction (especially when the next instruction is many km away), or summits of big climbs (Yad Moss or the Elan Valley) which give me something to aim for and also let me know how much pain I have left to endure.

I usually split routes at controls, so selecting a new route is just another thing you do at a control.  It means you don't have to stop when riding.

I split the ride into as few sections as possible taking into account the length (maximum ~120 routepoints per route), shared roads in/out of a control (the GPS will often try and route you to the finish rather than on the way out, such as a ride like the Elenith that has the same route in/out as far as Tenbury Wells), etc.

For most out and back rides this means cutting the ride into 2 and I'll do this at the halfway control.

For rides with loops it can be a pain, especially if the loops are short, but I tend to put each loop in its own route and just remember which way I need to go at the start of the loop.

If the ride has a usual sleep stop then I'll also end one of the routes there, that means I can display the ETA and work out how long I'm going to be able to sleep/rest.

Some example rides:-

Willy Warmer: route 1 = start -> Hungerford (turn), route 2 = Hungerford -> Finish

Elenith: route 1 = start -> Tregaron (turn), route 2 = Tregaron -> Finish

Dean: route 1 = start -> Chepstow (turn), route 2 = Chepstow -> finish

Severn Across: route 1 = start -> Chepstow, route 2 = Chepstow -> Membury (sleep/rest), route 3 = Membury -> Finish

LEL:
route 1 = Start -> Lincoln (not enough points to do the entire extended route to Thorne)
route 2 = Lincoln -> Thorne (extended route, sleep)
route 3 = Thorne -> Canonbie (sleep)
route 4 = Canonbie -> Dalkeith (turn)
route 5 = Dalkeith -> Alston (sleep)
route 6 = Alston -> Lincoln (sleep)
route 7 = Lincoln -> Finish (rest and chop bike into little bits)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2009, 02:20:57 pm »
if they are such carp why do so many riders use them?  :-\

Speaking purely for myself, because in combination with Tracklogs they are tremendously liberating.

I plot the required route (track, whatever...) junction by junction in Tracklogs. I find this an enjoyable exercise in itself; some might find it a chore, I suppose. I then squirt it down the wire into the GPS and just follow the compass arrow.

This allows me to go exactly where I want to go with a minimum of fuss. It might give slightly vague directions at a couple of junctions in every 100km, but it soon gets me back on the required route. For somebody with indifferent eyesight and a rotten memory, for whom reading maps junction by junction is a total PITA, this is absolutely wonderful.

If you think the Garmin documentation is lousy, the menu design less than ideal and the lack of simple, standardised terminology tiresome, I can only agree with you. That's why I worked out my own way of doing what I wanted the device to do, wrote it down and just follow the instructions. There are probably all sorts of other things I could get it to do, but I cannot be bothered trying to work out how - one iteration of that process was quite enough...
Profit or planet?

Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #107 on: March 10, 2009, 04:53:06 pm »
Would this work? Download a route from Bikely to Tracklogs, save as a .gpx.
Then send route to your gps (eTrex Vista cx).
Delete the route but have all of the 1700 odd waypoints (for a 200 km audax) in the gps.
Then, choose the 1st waypoint, choose "navigate", then choose "follow road"

Would you be directed to all subsequent waypoint, or only the 1st one?

Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #108 on: March 10, 2009, 04:56:48 pm »
1st one. You need there to be a route to follow a route.

Martin

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Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #109 on: March 10, 2009, 08:17:01 pm »
Thanks for all the replies so far; was in a bit of a mooey last night after failing to get it to do anything right but it does a whole heap more than it did on Sunday so we're slowly getting there  :)

one more question,

I put the Garmin gdb (the system I'm going to use as I've now got Garmin maps both sides of the interface and I know they talk to each other maybe better than anything else) of my own event into and asked it to navigate; sure it expected me to start from outside my house but the rest of it was pretty much spot on; except for a couple of bits where it did a complete wooey and went back on itself; if I force some more waypoints into the device will I be able to get it back on track?

as an aside, I told it to find my way to work this a.m while sitting on the train; it really did wet itself as it kept thinking I was on the parallel roads and as for passing under the M25...  a good way of whileing away a commute and running down the batteries from a million recalculations.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #110 on: March 10, 2009, 08:26:53 pm »
Thanks for all the replies so far; was in a bit of a mooey last night after failing to get it to do anything right but it does a whole heap more than it did on Sunday so we're slowly getting there  :)

one more question,

I put the Garmin gdb (the system I'm going to use as I've now got Garmin maps both sides of the interface and I know they talk to each other maybe better than anything else) of my own event into and asked it to navigate; sure it expected me to start from outside my house but the rest of it was pretty much spot on; except for a couple of bits where it did a complete wooey and went back on itself; if I force some more waypoints into the device will I be able to get it back on track?

as an aside, I told it to find my way to work this a.m while sitting on the train; it really did wet itself as it kept thinking I was on the parallel roads and as for passing under the M25...  a good way of whileing away a commute and running down the batteries from a million recalculations.

I have seen the routing algorithm on the PC sometimes do stupid things where it goes round the same loop of street twice.  Try moving the waypoints either side of the problem, it may be they are positioned just the wrong side of a junction on a one-way street and it has to go around the houses to get to where you want to be, since it does know about one-ways (at least it knows what it was told they were when the map was first made.  Over time as some roads get reclassified it will be more out of date).

Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #111 on: March 10, 2009, 09:38:59 pm »
If I was setting up a follow-road route for an audax, I'd start by working out on a map where the route was meant to go. I'd then set the routing to car/shortest distance and click on each of the controls in turn, then check the route it came up with against where the route was meant to be. In practice, the specified route often isn't the shortest way between controls, so it's quite likely that there would be differences. In that case I'd add extra points between the controls to force the route onto the correct roads. After downloading the route onto the GPS, I'd check it again in case of any differences in routes selected, and correct and download again if necessary.
I've just tried this for the Elenith (picked 'cos I know where it goes).
I added 3 extra points:
at Bewdley to force the outwards route onto the bypass as per the route sheet (though through town is allowed)
at Pembridge (shortest route between Rhayader and Kingsland is via the A448, Presteigne and Shobdon)
at Leominster (shortest route back to the finish is to cut up to Yarpole and follow the outwards route)

There were also short cuts at Orleton and just before Kingsland that save 100m and 500m respectively. I didn't bother doing anything about these. I've certainly seen people using the Kingsland short cut - it's handy for getting to the control before the others in your group.

Checking the route on the GPS, the only difference to the Mapsource routing is that it returns to the centre of Tregaron on leaving the control - 200m extra
Total time: 10 mins

Here's the route if anyone wants it (saved as gpx from Mapsource and loads of rubbish deleted):

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no" ?>
<gpx xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1" creator="MapSource 6.13.7" version="1.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:schemaLocation="GPX 1.1 Schema Documentation http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd">
<metadata> <bounds maxlat="52.4110347" maxlon="-2.2548151" minlat="52.1336031" minlon="-3.9367032"/> </metadata>
<wpt lat="52.1483945" lon="-3.4034112"> <name>Builth</name> </wpt>
<wpt lat="52.2786512" lon="-3.0661252"> <name>Discoed</name> </wpt>
<wpt lat="52.4110347" lon="-2.2550514"> <name>Finish</name> </wpt>
<wpt lat="52.2483628" lon="-2.8121301"> <name>Kingsland</name> </wpt>
<wpt lat="52.3004948" lon="-3.5103095"> <name>Rhayader</name> </wpt>
<wpt lat="52.2428656" lon="-2.8834391"> <name>Shobdon</name> </wpt>
<wpt lat="52.1994981" lon="-3.7520901"> <name>Staircase</name> </wpt>
<wpt lat="52.4107548" lon="-2.2549750"> <name>Start</name> </wpt>
<wpt lat="52.2219041" lon="-3.9367032"> <name>Tregaron</name> </wpt>
  <rte>
    <name>Elenith</name>
    <rtept lat="52.4107548" lon="-2.2549750"> <name>Start</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.3765576" lon="-2.2997362"> <name>2221</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.2428656" lon="-2.8834391"> <name>Shobdon</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.2786512" lon="-3.0661252"> <name>Discoed</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.1483945" lon="-3.4034112"> <name>Builth</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.1994981" lon="-3.7520901"> <name>Staircase</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.2219041" lon="-3.9367032"> <name>Tregaron</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.3004948" lon="-3.5103095"> <name>Rhayader</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.2178582" lon="-2.8967095"> <name>2427</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.2483628" lon="-2.8121301"> <name>Kingsland</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.2247741" lon="-2.7555569"> <name>2466</name> </rtept>
    <rtept lat="52.4110347" lon="-2.2550514"> <name>Finish</name> </rtept>
  </rte>
</gpx>







frankly frankie

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Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #112 on: March 11, 2009, 08:49:47 am »
If you think the Garmin documentation is lousy, the menu design less than ideal and the lack of simple, standardised terminology tiresome, I can only agree with you. That's why I worked out my own way of doing what I wanted the device to do, wrote it down and just follow the instructions.

That is spot on.  These things are highly configurable and any one person is only going to use a fraction of what is available.  Once you get it doing what you want, just ignore all the other stuff.

as an aside, I told it to find my way to work this a.m while sitting on the train; it really did wet itself as it kept thinking I was on the parallel roads and as for passing under the M25... 

I haven't tried it with an 'H' model (high sensitivity) but I find most modern rolling stock is completely opaque to GPS signals.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #113 on: March 11, 2009, 09:11:14 am »
as an aside, I told it to find my way to work this a.m while sitting on the train; it really did wet itself as it kept thinking I was on the parallel roads and as for passing under the M25... 

I haven't tried it with an 'H' model (high sensitivity) but I find most modern rolling stock is completely opaque to GPS signals.

My experiences have been that electric overhead cables do for GPS signals. Diesel trains on line with no overhead power seem OK.


If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #114 on: March 11, 2009, 09:28:51 am »
My experiences have been that electric overhead cables do for GPS signals. Diesel trains on line with no overhead power seem OK.

It took a while but my Forerunner 405 got enough satellites to get a position whilst on the electrified WCML on the way up to Blackpool the other week. I had to put it right up against the window and even then it only worked when pointing at certain angles. No chance of a signal anywhere inside the carriages away from the windows.

193kph though :)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #115 on: March 11, 2009, 09:41:22 am »
I got my Vista Cx to work for a short while on the HST down to cornwall the other week, but only by using it in the vestibule between carriages. I think the insulation in 1st Class makes it a no no.

T'was a giggle watching the moving map though - because for a lot of the time the actual position was nowhere near the railway line shown on the map so it showed me whizzing across the fields and open space. Or in the Kennet & Avon canal  :).

Only managed 180km/hr though  >:(

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #116 on: March 11, 2009, 10:24:38 am »
It's a far cry from sitting on a (fairly new) Inter City 125 on the ECML with an OS map and the wonderful stopwatch facility on my new digital watch, measuring the time between road bridges. Interestingly I clocked it at 125mph. Which seemed right.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Martin

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Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #117 on: March 12, 2009, 12:29:00 am »
My experiences have been that electric overhead cables do for GPS signals. Diesel trains on line with no overhead power seem OK.

we got the old live third rail down 'ere in Southernrailwayland innit?

but it only worked when near a window (I assume car ones are much the same) and as for at work in the old horsehair insulated hospital buildings....

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #118 on: March 12, 2009, 12:38:46 am »
My experiences have been that electric overhead cables do for GPS signals. Diesel trains on line with no overhead power seem OK.

we got the old live third rail down 'ere in Southernrailwayland innit?

but it only worked when near a window (I assume car ones are much the same) and as for at work in the old horsehair insulated hospital buildings....

I've had a signal from the middle of my livingroom, and in the window at the office at work.


Martin

  • Give me bas relief
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Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #119 on: March 12, 2009, 12:49:46 am »
My experiences have been that electric overhead cables do for GPS signals. Diesel trains on line with no overhead power seem OK.

we got the old live third rail down 'ere in Southernrailwayland innit?

but it only worked when near a window (I assume car ones are much the same) and as for at work in the old horsehair insulated hospital buildings....

I've had a signal from the middle of my livingroom, and in the window at the office at work.



I notice the Acquiring Satellites screen shows a whole plethora of space junk up there; at any one time how many of these things are there (and how much of the globe do they cover) ? and is that all they do? do they also relay football and QVC to the masses?

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: WOOT a GPS
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2009, 08:26:53 am »
24-32, and it's their main role - they're not tellysats.



Wikipedia, as always, has the gen on the satellite constellation: Global Positioning System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

Martin

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GPS 4 Dummies
« Reply #121 on: March 17, 2009, 09:12:50 am »
few more queries;

I've downloaded the 300 route to the device but when I set it to 'follow road' it needs a max of 50 waypoints; how do I set this on mapsource without going through and deleting some?

can I rename waypoints to eg INFO / El S stop?

if the device decides it doesn't want to take me down a particular road can I manually add a waypoint on the device to force it to?

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: GPS 4 Dummies
« Reply #122 on: March 17, 2009, 10:33:18 am »
few more queries;

I've downloaded the 300 route to the device but when I set it to 'follow road' it needs a max of 50 waypoints; how do I set this on mapsource without going through and deleting some?

can I rename waypoints to eg INFO / El S stop?

if the device decides it doesn't want to take me down a particular road can I manually add a waypoint on the device to force it to?

1.  Deleting some is what you'd have to do.  Set Mapsource to 'use autorouting' and recalculate the route after deleting some points, to check it still goes the right way.  Its a bit of a risky business IMO.  The trouble is that the two types of route really aren't compatible - a route intended to be used in direct (aka off road) mode is unlikely to work in follow road (unless its a very short one), and conversely a follow road route won't work very well in direct mode.
Alternatively you might be able to split the route into several shorter chunks, but unfortunately Mapsource doesn't have a Route Split tool.  There are simple enough ways - using a text editor.

You can rename some waypoints (in properties), but in a direct mode route possibly not many - you'll find the name field greyed out.  Easer to delete the waypoint, add a new one using the waypoint tool and name it, then attach the existing route to it.  Easy enough when you get the hang of it.   
Personally I limit names to 6 chars - which is good discipline if nothing else! - after that the font gets smaller, too small for my eyes.

On the road - you can scroll the map, manually plonk a waypoint down, then do a Go To to that waypoint.  This will cancel the existing route. On arrival at your Go To point, reload the Route to continue navigation.
Or why not just ignore the navigation hints and be your own man.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: GPS 4 Dummies
« Reply #123 on: March 17, 2009, 10:47:20 am »
few more queries;

I've downloaded the 300 route to the device but when I set it to 'follow road' it needs a max of 50 waypoints; how do I set this on mapsource without going through and deleting some?

can I rename waypoints to eg INFO / El S stop?

if the device decides it doesn't want to take me down a particular road can I manually add a waypoint on the device to force it to?

1.  Deleting some is what you'd have to do.  Set Mapsource to 'use autorouting' and recalculate the route after deleting some points, to check it still goes the right way.  Its a bit of a risky business IMO.  The trouble is that the two types of route really aren't compatible - a route intended to be used in direct (aka off road) mode is unlikely to work in follow road (unless its a very short one), and conversely a follow road route won't work very well in direct mode.
Alternatively you might be able to split the route into several shorter chunks, but unfortunately Mapsource doesn't have a Route Split tool.

You can rename some waypoints (in properties), but in a direct mode route possibly not many - you'll find the name field greyed out.  Easer to delete the waypoint, add a new one using the waypoint tool and name it, then attach the existing route to it.  Easy enough when you get the hang of it.   
Personally I limit names to 6 chars - which is good discipline if nothing else! - after that the font gets smaller, too small for my eyes.

On the road - you can scroll the map, manually plonk a waypoint down, then do a Go To to that waypoint.  This will cancel the existing route. On arrival at your Go To point, reload the Route to continue navigation.

If the waypoints are numbered in order (must be numbered with leading zeros or this will NOT work) then go to the waypoints view, sort them by name, then select a subset of the waypoints and use "create route from selected waypoints".

This is an easy way to create multiple routes.

I always create the waypoints first and then create a route using them.  Usually I use 3 digit numbering, as some routes need >100 waypoints.  If I start with 01 and then get to 99, I need to add extra zero to all the waypoints.  (If they are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 then when sorted they will come out as 1, 10, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9).  Adding a leading zero so you have 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 ensures the correct sort order.

If you need to add a waypoint between 04 and 05 after having created loads of waypoints, call it 04a which will sort correctly i.e. 04 04a 05.

Ideally someone will write a decent route editor one day, with sensible auto-numbering, etc.

My usual system for direct routing is something like this:

001 STRT
002 L T
003 E 1
004 SO
005 L R
..
015 INFO
..
..
023 CTRL
024 R X

then I select waypoints 001 to 023, and create a route just from those, and then 023 to nnn CTRL and create a route from those, etc etc.

Whatever system you use, if they are nicely numbered for easy sorting, you can create routes for a subset of the waypoints quite easily.

To change the name of a waypoint, menu over it and "waypoint properties" has an auto-name check-box.  Uncheck this and you can type your own name for it.

frankly frankie

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Re: GPS 4 Dummies
« Reply #124 on: March 17, 2009, 11:10:29 am »
If the waypoints are numbered in order (must be numbered with leading zeros or this will NOT work) then go to the waypoints view, sort them by name, then select a subset of the waypoints and use "create route from selected waypoints".

This is an easy way to create multiple routes.

What a smart tip!  Very good.

Quote
To change the name of a waypoint, menu over it and "waypoint properties" has an auto-name check-box.  Uncheck this and you can type your own name for it.

In Mapsource, unfortunately this only works for routes made in the way you have described (ie by creating waypoints first).  If the person who made the route in the first place used the Route Tool, you can't rename routepoints in Mapsource.  (You can in other software, Memory Map for example.)


It's not dark yet but it's getting there.