Audax - night riding/sleep deprivation/tiredness and possible calamity

[Wycombewheeler]

I think 400s are the most difficult distance wrt to sleep deprivation...

6am start  -> loss of sleep the night before the event  ->  by sleepy time you're close enough to the finish to make a sleep stop pointless  -> at the finish too early to check into a hotel room. On the event itself the dark section is ridden when riders are already tired from 18 hours of the ride.

9am start -> wake at normal time before the event, at 300km it's late enough and there's still enough ride left to make stopping viable. noon finish means the last 100km can be ridden after sunrise. if you want to stay over before driving home you can often check into a hotel not long after 12:00

noon start -> even better

[Von Broad]

just adding couple of things to wind up.......

to be clear, I've driven to and from lots of Audax events in the past, and if I continue cycling, I will do so in the future.

Hitherto, I've always been able to turn the Astra Estate into a luxurious audax hotel and it's invariably worked just fine. Clear everything out, put a slab of foam in the back, with bedding and sleep perfectly fine both before and after an event. I can think of numerous rides where I've done just that - Heart of England x 6, BCM x 2, Elenith x 5, Flatlands x 4 and many others etc. It's never ever been a question of not sleeping after longer events. I just have too. Period.
The problem here was the delusion of a shorter distance being 'safer', it's only a few miles from home, it will be fine. Well it didn't turn out like that, did it?

Mate of mine took me over to Langley this morning to collect the contents of the car, namely my bike, a heap of dust sheets and loads of decorating bits. At least the bike would have been unaffected by all this, it had plenty of room in the boot [with passenger seats removed] to move about and take the impact, no problem, right? Well...again, that was wishful thinking....[gulp!].
 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MEJYxMBSU3NVfnWd9

I couldn't believe the state of those front forks. So we collected the contents, said goodbye to the car, and as we drove away I became aware more than ever before that I've been extremely fortunate to walk away alive from this accident. As a mate of mine said, 'yes, I think you pushed it to the absolute limit with luck". Exaggeration? Maybe, but he's not far from the truth.

We drove back past the exact spot where it happened, and there is not a scratch on the concrete post/wall, totally untouched......all the momentum energy went back into the car.

Thanks for the messages. As i said, I was happy to accept whatever the tone of the responses. It's not a problem.

Keep riding and keep safe as best you can.
cheers

[Wycombewheeler]

I'd be strongly considering writing off that frame. The forks are obviously bent, but you don't know what stresses were imposed on the head tube, and if the head tube joints or the top of the down tube has also suffered. Although I suppose since replacing the forks to match might not be simple, that might be on the cards anyway.

Also bar end plugs are good. it stops the handlebar taking a sample core from your leg in a crash.

[arabella]

Glad you are OK(-ish).  and agree about not using that frame again, it can join the gas pipe special I'm afraid (Ipswich tip does a good line in, ahem, used frames 

I'm interested in your comment about possible glucose crash, but don't know aught about them.  Interested if anyone else can add anything - I have heard of someone on an audax blacking out (at least a decade ago) but never being quite sure why.

[Diesel]

I'll add my thanks to Von Broad for sharing. Firstly, I'm glad you aren't too bad.

It is good for us to hear that and for all of us who drive to and from events - a salutary reminder. I try and avoid it but sometimes, it's difficult not to.

What I find interesting is that it happened so quickly, both in terms of not long after leaving the arrivee and without warning of 'the dozies'.

I will reevaluate driving to/from again, especially any events involving an all-nighter. With any safety risk it's good to reassess on a regular basis. I suppose driving is one of the more dangerous things most of us do.

[Philip D]

I can relate. I rode the Moors and Wolds 400 on Saturday and I suspect I was last man back. I had a 10 mile drive to get home...and it was hard to stay awake. In the car park packing up I didn't feel that sleepy, but I think there is something about actually being in the car driving that makes one sleepier. Opening the window and putting on some music might help a bit. A bit.

Anyway, on the strength of your post I just booked a room for the Sunday after the Llanfair 400. No way am I going to risk driving back over twisty Peak District roads.

[Sergeant Pluck]

The scariest thing was that I felt absolutely wide awake and alert.

It is indeed the scary bit.

I hope you recover quickly, Von Broad, and I think it is a good thing that you shared it.

<Boring story removed>

[Jurek]

I've only ever dozed off once.
That was whilst driving an artic.
Thankfully, no one came to any harm.
It isn't an experience I'd care to repeat.
Thanks for sharing and heal swiftly, Garry.

[Jethro]

In 2019 I was able to visit Rambouillet for the PBP and helped out a bit too.  I was also able to ride from Rambouillet to Dreux and back and followed some of the PBP riders for a while.  This of course was the last part of the ride and suddenly a rider in front of me just went from one side of the road to the other and almost fell from his bike.  I knew straight away that he had momentarily fell asleep while cycling.  He then stopped at the side of the road even though it was probably less than 30k from the finish.

I too have driven home after a long event and thankfully made it home without any incident but that was a good few years ago.  I also had a job with a courier firm and did a job each week from Birmingham to Paris and back, a distance of 750 miles.  The quickest I ever did it was in about 16 hours and the slowest took over 24 hours.  We were paid by the mile and I know of some younger drivers that were doing that distance and more every day of the week.  As I was getting older I eventually decided that I could no longer do these long distances anymore and quit the job.  Thankfully I completed the journey everytime without any problems but was I just lucky or crazy.  Maybe both.  Many lessons have been learned but it is still something many cyclists and/or drivers will still do sadly.

[rogerzilla]

I've never driven after a night ride (well, not until I've had some sleep) but I have been driven, or sat on a train, after most of them.  I concur that the usual effect is to suddenly drop off to sleep without feeling particularly drowsy.

[MAC]

Sobering read. Glad you're OK. I've just added a warning not drive home without sleep + nearby hotel details to my organiser blurb for an upcoming hard 400.

[sg37409]

Indeed, a sobering nightmare of a read.

There seems to be 2 aspects to this.
The personal responsibility.  In the past I've driven home at night after 300's, spending an hour in a warm comfortable dark environment without a sleep first.  I wouldnt do that now (I get drowsy more often now when driving even without day long exertion before hand) and reading this thread, I think there is much more awareness now than there used to be. 

The liability to audax if a major catastrophe occurred.  I think guidance or a ruling similar to vetternrunden would be a sensible addition. Enforcing this would be kind of beside the point as it would hopefully provide some defence for Audax UK in such an event.

[PeterM]

Thanks, Garry. Heal well.
After a couple of dodged bullets, I prefer to ride or get the train to events. If I drive, I make sure I have several hours sleep before returning.
From a policy viewpoint, I think AUK should strongly discourage members from driving immediately after any event over 200k

[Wycombewheeler]

I think guidance or a ruling similar to vetternrunden would be a sensible addition. Enforcing this would be kind of beside the point as it would hopefully provide some defence for Audax UK in such an event.

Enforcing would be impossible because people can just park further away and cycle back to their car. But it would hopefully give riders pause to think, should I be doing this.

I'd also like to see 6am not be the default start time for 400s, as IMO it makes fatigue worse. I know both times I have done PBP with an evening start I have ridden right through the first night and following day without a problem, but if I start a 400 at 6:00 I know I will be very drowsy while riding at 3:00 to 5:00 the next day. I doubt many are OK to drive after arriving at the finish, having lost sleep on the friday night and then riding completely through saturday night. Maybe only the quicker riders who are finishing in 20 hours or less, but even then driving at 2am after having been awake for 21-22 hours is not ideal.

I suspect the thinking may be around getting the field away and spread out before traffic levels build up. But we typically start 200s at 8am and normally these have larger fields.

[Laid Back Rich]

After years of doing our Dauntsey Dawdle 400 start at 6am, we are trialling 6pm this year (this week as it happens), TBH our chief consideration was for the finish helpers who will now be required from noon to 9pm Sunday rather than midnight to 9am, but it will hopefully be safer for those attempting to drive home afterwards, who will still have the offer of a free night at the scout hut.

Anyone here fancy drafting something to put up to the AGM as mooted above?

[this_is_the_way]

Tired driving is dangerous, but it doesn't carry the kind of stigma that drink driving does. Maybe it should though. Here is a study that tried to relate the effects of fatigue with alcohol: https://sci-hub.se/10.1136/oem.57.10.649

They didn't even need to keep them up for nearly as long as Audax riders are out to reach the equivalent of a 0.1% blood alcohol content.

At a BAC of 0.1%, equivalence occurred after between 17.74 and 19.65 hours of wakefulness

Of course it's possible to object to trying to relate two different phenomena and there is variability between people. You do wonder though, what would those numbers look like if they'd made the subjects pedal a bicycle through an entire night and day cycle instead of just keeping them awake in a nice lab environment. They certainly would not have been better. The fact that this would almost certainly never pass IRB should add weight to the findings. Actually, the fact that audax itself beyond 300km probably wouldn't pass IRB should maybe give us all pause 

I say this not as someone moralizing. I have driven tired more times than I'm would like to admit, and with others in the car. After I became aware of this study though I much more often pull over for a nap.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Glad you are ok and nobody was hurt.

I've received stick on the forum when I talk about driving Ullapool to York on one go (I've actually done Cambridge to Ullapool in one go as well).

I'm used to that now, and, more importantly, used to 'managing' my state. Really, that is about being aware of the warning signs.

When I was younger I was prone to falling asleep uncontrollably (which, with hindsight, was related to my migraine issues).

I think it is difficult for one person to prescribe to another what they must do. A 2hour sleep might not be as 'refreshing' as a 20min nap.

[grams]

"If you haven't slept you shouldn't be driving a single mile" would be a simple message to get out through various channels.

Unfortunately it's at odds with how a large number of participants currently behave.

[Genosse Brymbo]

Thanks for sharing, Garry. Hope you heal well and quickly.

It's a bullet I've certainly dodged at least on one occasion.  Until this year I've driven from the Brevet Cymru 400 back to Reading on the M4, generally pausing at Leigh Delamere services for a sleep.  Last year I gave Bianchi Boy a lift home and he had to point out my traversing the rumble strip on a couple of occasions before Leigh Delamere.  This year I used the train.  Lesson learned.

I too believe AUK should discourage members from driving immediately after any event over 200km.  No need for rules or enforcement, but strongly worded advice.

[MattH]

Gary, I hope you heal quickly and echo the thanks for sharing. When doing long Audaxes I didn't normally drive home straight afterwards (usually cycling there or grabbing a hotel), but I have had the drowsies doing other driving - it is very scary and not necessarily predictable.

I think it would be good to do an Arrivee article if you feel able, including the photos. Even if it's under a pen name rather than your own. "Please don't drive after an Audax" isn't as powerful a statement as "This is what can happen if you drive after an Audax, and you might not be so lucky".

Posting this here must have given you some worry, I hope you've seen that something positive has come as many will now be considering their own plans and modifying them according to your experience.

[The Family Cyclist]

One thing to add or maybe take away

This is a fairly niche forum but you might want to lose/edit the pic with the vehicle registration in

[hellymedic]

The lethal reality of tired driving was brought home to me very early in my medical career.
One colleague had 4 months off work after falling asleep at the wheel and crashing.
I did a locum post in Cambridge, replacing somebody who had been promoted to a post in Leeds.
He died on a motorway between the two cities as his girlfriend was in Cambridge.

Tired doctors crash cars a lot...

[Laid Back Rich]

Tired doctors crash cars a lot...

Are you aware of any guidance to doctors on this subject that we could look at and learn from?

[hellymedic]

I’m not.
I could search.
The problem is likely to get worse as doctors seldom live on-site now and though shifts are shorter, the work is more intense.
Centralisation of some services and random geographical job allocation won’t help at all.
Old Grauniad article https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/06/half-of-junior-doctors-having-accidents-or-near-misses-after-night-shifts

[willpom gwraudax]

If AUK was to issue guidance at what point would it stop? Don't operate heavy machinery, mind the gap, don't have a bath unsupervised... All could have fatal or life changing consequences. By giving guidance to one potential risk outside of event parameters should you not then give guidance to every potential risk?