Is a NOS 17 year old Clement silk tub just a museum piece? Or can you use it?

[Porkins]

There are some on ebay, and allegedly they hold air. But will the inner tubes last long? I have no idea whether they're butyl or latex. If they're rubbish can you replace them with a new inner tube e.g. this Michelin Aircomp? http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?Cat=cycle&ProdID=5360023141

OK, so you'd have a LOT of sewing to do. 

[hubner]

The inners will almost certainly be latex, only the cheaper training tubs used to have butyl tubes . If they've been stored properly, ie in the dark indoors, mounted on rims but not glued, off the floor and maybe with wheel covers, then the tubs should be OK and usable, but if they've been folded up for 17 years and left in the shed, then probably not . I have some NOS tubs which are at least 20 years old, maybe 25, and they are perfectly usable, although the tread is not as supple as a new tub. If the casing and tread is in good condition, then I think the inner tube should also be OK. The problem is with the casing and tread if they've not been stored properly.

I also have this Vittoria silk tub that's around 10-15 years old, and the ride is amazing, it makes a whooshing noise as you're riding along .

Campag Nuovo Record / Mavic GEL280 front wheel 28 spokes, Vittoria Pista CS Seta tub. Complete wheel weight 820g.


Just my opinion, vintage tubs should be used with "period correct" bikes, if you're just looking for a tub to use, then a new tub would be more appropriate, even if they're ugly.

[Porkins]

Thanks. I have emailed a bunch of questions to the seller! The tyres would be for use with a new steel lugged frame with a quill stem and quite a few '80s touches including  Dura Ace 7400. That's if I ever finish building the damn thing! 

[Porkins]

He says they were folded, in a box in a dry environment, and some of the latex has come off the sidewalls. Do you think they have probably started to rot? Maybe silk just doesn't rot a lot?  There are some huuuge photos on the listing here http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160229567981&_trksid=p2759.l1259#ebayphotohosting

I'll probably be outbid by some collector anyway...

[Charlotte]

Nick!  They're antiques!

Get a grip!

Everyone with half a gram of common sense uses clinchers now, you silly bugger!

[David Martin]

Nick!  They're antiques!

Get a grip!

Everyone with half a gram of common sense uses clinchers now, you silly bugger!

And those with more than half a gram of common sense pick what is appropriate..

..d (who was looking at some very nice tubs but figured he needs to be less tubby before riding on anything other than training tubs)

[JohnP]

 

slightly off topic= Americans and Inner City Fixie Chicks ride clinchers.  British cyclists ride beaded tyres, either folding or not.

[Treewheeler]

Well, I can't vouch for this venerable tyre.
However, I can vouch for the ride qualities of tubs.
I raced to 2nd cat and done a 52:14 for a 25mTT on tubs.
I never once had a puntcure but that was just pure luck I am sure...
 The main point I want to make is that the tyres ride better than beaded versions.
They are lighter for one thing as an ensemble with the concave rims which hold them.
The rims themselves are stronger and lighter due to having no lips to hold a bead.
There is a more subtle ride quality which I can't find words to describe... its as though they are simply more comfortable whilst being of the best performance.
 Of course, they are a fag to fit and a nightmare to mend for the inexpert but hey! so are many simple tasks these days with cycles having more and more sealed throwaway units.
  I never trained or rode generally on tubsand always let the air out by half after use.

[Charlotte]

British cyclists ride bearded

Fixed that for you 

[Jakob]

I'm mad enough to use tubs for general riding and they *are* far more comfortable. Riding at 120psi on tubs, feels like 70-80psi on clinchers.
Use the Conti Competitions or some of the Tufo ones and you're near puncture proof. (Especially with a little help of the tufo sealant). I had 2 slow punctures last year, both fixed with the tufo sealant.
 I wouldn't use a 17 year old tub, though.

[Biggsy]

It used to be the custom to "age" tyres and tubs.  The natural materials were thought to improve with age, giving a more supple ride.  I don't if there was a limit, though.  I would be concerned if they had been kept in daylight or UV light as this can cause damage.

I seem to remember seeing tests that show the best modern clinchers (that are made from the same materials used for tubs) have lower rolling resistance than tubs.  They should be no less comfortable then.  Tubs are still used by (some) pros only becuase lighter rims can be used and because tubs are more rideable when punctured.

[Porkins]

OK, I give up on the Clements.  The seller says his last pair went for $250 anyway. But I would love to experience that silk sensation described by fixer. I was going to get some silk Dugasts but the Dugast peeps talked me into ordering the ones with the carbon/kevlar guaranteed puncture proof belt, which have cotton sidewalls.

Anyway, am convinced that my 27 mm Dugasts (if they ever arrive) will be like a feather bed and allow me to knock off a 300 mile day with ease 

Edit: but Biggsy says Pro2 Races are just as comfy. Pah! How plebeian...he really is dragging this place into the gutter. 

[Charlotte]

Anyway, am convinced that my 27 mm Dugasts (if they ever arrive) will be like a feather bed and allow me to knock off a 300 mile day with ease 

I'd do some training first, too.

Just to cover all your bases, like 

[hubner]

It used to be the custom to "age" tyres and tubs.  The natural materials were thought to improve with age, giving a more supple ride. 

I thought the idea was that aging tubs would make them less likely to puncture because apparently the rubber would harden slightly with age. But I would have thought that would make them actually less supple.

I seem to remember seeing tests that show the best modern clinchers (that are made from the same materials used for tubs) have lower rolling resistance than tubs.  They should be no less comfortable then

I think they said rim cement was the cause of the extra rolling resistance, but "hard" cement (shellac) would not have it. Yes in theory a tub and its "open tubular" version should have the same ride, but I think you have to include the shape of the rim. A shallow box section sprint rim is going to be less rigid than a clincher rim, it might be very slight but I think it's noticeable.

[Jakob]

They should be no less comfortable then. 

I think the increased feeling of comfort comes from the difference in shock-absorption. Even with the glued section, you got a full circular surface absorbing the bumps, whereas you get a little more than half that one a clincher, which then has a more rigid attachment with the bead.

[David Martin]

Edit: but Biggsy says Pro2 Races are just as comfy. Pah! How plebeian...he really is dragging this place into the gutter. 

I have Pro2 Grip on one bike and Vittoria Rally tubs on the other. 25 vs 21mm.  100-110 psi vs 140

The tubs have it. Lighter, faster, and even though they are 1/3 the price of the clinchers, the same weight.

..d

[Biggsy]

It used to be the custom to "age" tyres and tubs.  The natural materials were thought to improve with age, giving a more supple ride. 

I thought the idea was that aging tubs would make them less likely to puncture because apparently the rubber would harden slightly with age. But I would have thought that would make them actually less supple.

I would have thought so too, but some people used to believe that aging improves tyres in every way.

From www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-fables.html :

"What advantage is there in aging tubulars?

None! The aging concept arose from the same source as the "steel frames need to be replaced because they get soft with age" concept. Both were intended to improve sales during the off (winter) season by bike shops with too much inventory on their shelves. Tires oxidize, outgas, and polymerize from ultraviolet light. The concept of a tire manufacturer making a tire that cannot be used until ripened for six months from the date of purchase is ridiculous. Tires can be made to any specification at the factory. Tires are most flexible and durable when they are new. They don't improve with time and exposure to heat, light, and oxygen or ozone.

"Over-aged" tubular tires, have crumbling hard brown latex on their sidewalls that exposes separating cords directly to weather and wear and they have treads crack when flexed. Considering that this is a continuous process, it is hard to explain where, in the time from manufacture to the crumbly condition, the optimum age lies. The claim that tires are lighter after aging is true. Their elastomers have evaporated making the tire brittle and weak.

Purchasing tubular tires in advance to age them is unwise, although if there is a supply problem, tubular tires bought in advance should be sealed tightly in airtight bags and kept in the dark, optimally in a freezer. For best results, use new tires because aged tires are only as good as how little they have aged."

[rogerzilla]

I thought the idea was that aging tubs would make them less likely to puncture because apparently the rubber would harden slightly with age.

I agree with this.  I use NOS Spesh Turbo tyres which have never punctured (they just wear out) despite doing a couple of thousand miles over the worst paths and roads Swindon can offer.  They have no kevlar belt or any other puncture protection.  My theory is that the tread has hardened off so it can no longer embed thorns and small shards of glass.

Paul Milnes sells them on ebay for £10 the pair.