Michelin Tyres - Product Requirements!

[gonzo]

I know this seems strange to say but different tyres tend to mount differently on different rims - Michelin and Mavic always seem to go well as do Vittoria with Campgnolo - can anyone see a pattern here? lol

On the "stupid names" you have to remember that our products are sold globally so we have to find names that either have a general meaning to everyone or mean nothing to anyone. Its a bit like cars - wasn't it Alfa who nearly launched a car called the "Rusty" becuase it meant something desirable in some foreign language?

Over on slowtwitch I think the consensus was everyone agreeing that your tyres weren't easy to fit.

I think there was a renault (?) that they wanted to call the MR2 which translates somewhat differently in French!

[Biggsy]

Experiences with the amount tyres get cut will vary enormously depending on pressure, environment and sheer luck or bad luck.

I reckon the harder you pump a tyre up, the more susceptible it is to cuts as you ride over bits of rock, glass and metal debris.

[KidJambo]

When are Michelin going to produce a tubeless road tyre especially now that Campag say it is the future and  have suitable wheels along with Fulcrum and Mavic. At the moment it is just Hutchinson. The wheels are too expensive for most  at the moment but any standard rim can be converted using Stans No Tube. I would do it tomorrow if Michelin produced some tyres.

The truth is we actually developed a tubeless verion of the original Pro Race (some 8-10 years ago) along with Mavic but at the time we were both unsure of the viability from a commercial point of view and it was not progressed. The cost implication to the rider is the same as when we launched tubeless MTB tyres a few years back; only Mavic made the rims and they were more than the average bike and it wasn't until people bought into the idea and other manufacturers got on board thats the volumes increased and the cost, and thus price, reduced. I think the same will happen on the road - Hutchindon launch the first tyre (which is a dog by the way...but the standard Fusion2 isn't much cop anyway) but it will take all the premium tyre brands and rim manufacturers to buy into the idea and all have offers accessible to the average rider before it really takes off. At this time we have no plans to launch a tubeless version of the Pro3 or its sucessor - but thats not to say that things don't change. We certainly have the technology and maybe need to investigate further the commercial implications of putting such a product into production.

[KidJambo]

We only want tyre companies to offer a choice. If people don't like black tread and amber sidewalls, they can just choose tyres with another colour.

I agree - now try persuading the retailer to invest in stocking a wide range of colour and sidewall options!

[KidJambo]

krylions and PR3's in plain black?

The Pro3 Race IS available in plain black - and I do mean BLACK not DARK GREY!

[KidJambo]

As many of you know, I loved the Krylions.  They performed very well in the faerie resistance stakes and were good for several months of heavy commuting.  Good value for money / performance.

Then some bright spark decided to stop producing them.

This caused me to have to try other brands.  Some of which were shite for my purposes.  This caused me endless hassle and annoyance. 

I love riding my bike but that buzz wavers when the enjoyment factor is eroded ( changing punctures every other day for example ).

I have finally found a tyre that compares to my love for the Krylions.  Continental GP All Seasons.  So far great value for money / performance.

What I am trying to say with evidence here is that all it will take is one little glitch in the Krylion world ( once it returns ) for me to stop using them. 

So AJ, has the fabric / design / etc of the Krylion been changed or are we getting the excellent tyre back, as it was before it went away?

I am assured that the Krylion that is back in stock today is IDENTICAL to the one you have (or had) on your bike!

[KidJambo]

Additional thought - despite my oft repeated claims of hi-viz is useless, I quite like the reflective band on the Marathon plus tyres.  No additional weight or effort required, but good side visibility at night.

Maybe that could go on a new tyre, or if Michelin wanted their own "stamp" how about a zig-zag or broken stripe so it would be a little more distinctive?  (Lots of printed Michelin Men a few inches apart?)

+1 for that as an idea.  Very good for visibility, even if mucky.

Also helps to find your tent at night

The Michelin City and Pilot City do have a reflective sidewall strip...even the old World Tour has one now! - not yet on lightweight tyres but I'll put that forward for sure. Only stumbling block I can think of is that whilst it doesn't add to the weight, it does add to the production cost!!!

[Biggsy]

I know this seems strange to say but different tyres tend to mount differently on different rims - Michelin and Mavic always seem to go well as do Vittoria with Campgnolo - can anyone see a pattern here? lol

Vittoria tyres go even "weller" on Mavic rims if you like an easy fit.

Seriously, one thing that keeps me buying Vittoria Open Corsas is because they're so beautifully easy to get on and off Mavic Open Pro rims, and Vittoria Rubino Pros are not too bad either.  Michelin tyres may be easier to fit on Mavic than Campag rims, but perhaps they could be easier still while still being safe.

Overly tight fitting tyres is a common complaint on the forum (for various makes & models of tyres on various rims).  It is a matter that tyre manufacturers should take seriously if they want to maximise repeat custom.

[KidJambo]

I know I haven't commented on ever post made but its now nearly 8pm and I've been on the road since 5am and I'm losing the will to live!!!

Rest assured all comments and points have been noted and will be included in my report.

I very much appreciate your comments, thoughts and feedback!

[KidJambo]

I know this seems strange to say but different tyres tend to mount differently on different rims - Michelin and Mavic always seem to go well as do Vittoria with Campgnolo - can anyone see a pattern here? lol

Vittoria tyres go even "weller" on Mavic rims if you like an easy fit.

Seriously, one thing that keeps me buying Vittoria Open Corsas is because they're so beautifully easy to get on and off Mavic Open Pro rims, and Vittoria Rubino Pros are not too bad either.  Michelin tyres may be easier to fit on Mavic than Campag rims, but perhaps they could be easier still while still being safe.

Overly tight fitting tyres is a common complaint on the forum (for various makes & models of tyres).  It is a matter that tyre manufacturers should take seriously if they want to maximise repeat custom.

Just quickly - before I get on with my real life outside of Michelin and tyres - just wanted to comment on this. The size of a tyre (23-622 for example) is a generic size and does not have to be exact - I think it can move by 0.1% either way on the diameter - and some manufacturers tollerances are tighter than others. I don't want to sound like I'm just spouting Michelin blurb here but our tyres tend to be spot on size-wise.....just don't get me started on those "slack Italians"!

[Biggsy]

Regardless of whether they're spot on in terms of conforming to the 622 standard, you could make them deliberately a bit larger if you wanted them to be an easier fit (and weren't afraid of getting sued if anyone's tyre blew off as a result).

Apart from two dodgy examples once some years ago, the Vittoria tyres I've bought have been consistent with each other of the model.  So their tolerances aren't slack in terms of consistency, just perhaps slack in terms of conforming to the standard - for which I'm grateful for!

[αdαmsκι]

Overly tight fitting tyres is a common complaint on the forum (for various makes & models of tyres on various rims).  It is a matter that tyre manufacturers should take seriously if they want to maximise repeat custom.

I quite agree.  My new bike came with Mavic wheels onto which were some Continental Ultrasport tyres, which were a total pig to get on and off the rims.  I realise that an expensive Continental tyre is like to be a different beast to an Ultrasport tyre, but that experience was enough to scare me off using Continental tyres again.  I've not had this problem with Michelin tyres, but that's cause I've never bought Michelin tyres.

So their tolerances aren't slack in terms of consistency, just perhaps slack in terms of conforming to the standard - for which I'm grateful for!

So Vittoria sizings are not very accurate but very precise

[richie_b]

KidJambo
What about making more sizes of your tyres?
Schwalbe tyres are a pain to get on & off rims, but they make all sorts of sizes, so I have their tyres on all my bikes.  The three cycles that I regularly use have the following wheels:
3x16"
2x20"
1x26"
1x650c
I can only get tyres from you for two of these wheels, so I don't even bother looking at your website.  More choice for funny wheel sizes would be great 

[Lucky]

Seriously, one thing that keeps me buying Vittoria Open Corsas is because they're so beautifully easy to get on and off Mavic Open Pro rims, and Vittoria Rubino Pros are not too bad either.

Yep, same experience here with Vittoria clinchers - I don't even bother taking tyre levers when riding Diamante Pros as they come off my Reynolds rims without. And no problems with them popping off when they shouldn't, either. Would definitely welcome other manufacturers copying the fit of the high-end Vittoria tyres.

[giropaul]

There is another side to the "too tight" discussion. I once punctured on a long descent, and the (Italian) tyre slipped off the rim and wrapped round the fork. Maybe being tight to fit isn't such a bad thing!

[Adrian]

On the "stupid names" you have to remember that our products are sold globally so we have to find names that either have a general meaning to everyone or mean nothing to anyone. Its a bit like cars - wasn't it Alfa who nearly launched a car called the "Rusty" becuase it meant something desirable in some foreign language?

If they did, it was probably someone being honest by mistake.

[KidJambo]

KidJambo
What about making more sizes of your tyres?
Schwalbe tyres are a pain to get on & off rims, but they make all sorts of sizes, so I have their tyres on all my bikes.  The three cycles that I regularly use have the following wheels:
3x16"
2x20"
1x26"
1x650c
I can only get tyres from you for two of these wheels, so I don't even bother looking at your website.  More choice for funny wheel sizes would be great 

I guess the simple answer here - pobably the one you are expecting anyway - is that it all comes down to money. For example, to make a new tyre in an existing dimesion just requires an adaption of the mould - a new tyre in a new dimension requires a new mould. We would have to look at the global market and what percentage we could raealistically get and weight it up. I don't have any data on the sizes you give but saythe global annual demand for a 2x20 is 50,000 units. We could realistically expect to get up to 20% of a pemium market but less than 5% of a budget one. Tyres in this size are not predominantly premium so we could maybe get up to 10% of the share - 5,000 tyres per year. I would suggest that it would not be worth the cost (both in terms of initial investement and R&D etc) to try a get into this market. Given that we are stopping production of some less popular sized tyres where we already have the moulds etc so we only have the actuakl production cost to consider, I would suggest that investment in new less popular sizes is unlikely to happen unless - like 29" MTB we see some potential for growth in the ner future. In markets like this where there is only really room for one premium brand offer, we let Schwalbe get on with it. I used to be responsible for motorcycle tyres and all other premium manufacturers pulled out of vintage racing tyres and left Avon to get on with it!I hope that this makes sense!

[hubner]

We only want tyre companies to offer a choice. If people don't like black tread and amber sidewalls, they can just choose tyres with another colour.

I agree - now try persuading the retailer to invest in stocking a wide range of colour and sidewall options!

You seem to be arguing against yourself.

Why not just make tyres in just one colour combination; black tread and amber sidewalls. That'll avoid any problems with "now try persuading the retailer to invest in stocking a wide range of colour and sidewall options". But then "now try persuading the retailer to invest in stocking a wide range of colour and sidewall options" doesn't seem to stop tyre companies from making tyres in endless different combinations of colour (except black tread and amber sidewalls)

[TimC]

Pro 3 Race are an easy fit on Ksyrium Elites (06 and 09), Krylions are quite tight on Open Pros - as are the Axial Carbons I still have on one set after 4000+ miles! Lithions are a b*tch to get on and off Aksiums - especially in the cold, as I discovered this morning!

Oh, and Mega Hamsterskins are almost impossible to get on and off Fulcrum Racing 7s

[gonzo]

Here's an idea for you; check all tyres off the production line and group those that are at the upper band of the tollerance, the medium ones and those that are on the lower end of the tolerance limits. That way people can choose how tight the tyres fit on the wheels.

[valkyrie]

Another vote for easing off the fit a little. I use Campag wheels which I really like. I put a pair of Michelin tyres on in the house when I bought the wheels. It took me so long to get them on that I took them straight off again. I'm now using Vredsteins but I'd love to use ProRace3s if I thought I could change them with cold wet hands at the roadside.

[KidJambo]

We only want tyre companies to offer a choice. If people don't like black tread and amber sidewalls, they can just choose tyres with another colour.

I agree - now try persuading the retailer to invest in stocking a wide range of colour and sidewall options!

You seem to be arguing against yourself.

Why not just make tyres in just one colour combination; black tread and amber sidewalls. That'll avoid any problems with "now try persuading the retailer to invest in stocking a wide range of colour and sidewall options". But then "now try persuading the retailer to invest in stocking a wide range of colour and sidewall options" doesn't seem to stop tyre companies from making tyres in endless different combinations of colour (except black tread and amber sidewalls)

Sorry - I did appear to be arguing against myself - it had been a long day!

When we look at coloured tread/sidewall options its about encompassing as much demand as possible with the fewest number of products. We realise that we are never going to please everyone - the one werido bloke who wants an orange tread with a lime green sidewall etc - just doesn't get catered for. Whilst there seems to be quite a high percentage of people on here who would favour a black tread/amber sidewall combination, the market in general considers that quite retro and globally the demand is for an all-black tyre. I know Continental make their GP4000 in a black tread/amber sidewall but, according to a couple of big retailers I spoke to it is a relatively slow mover. I know on the Pro3 we used a Parisien fashion house to decide on our colours - their feedback was that an all-black tyre would be the biggest seller (for info, that represents about 60% of my forecast for 2009). This is follwed by base colours - blue, red and yellow - and then some dynamic colours - orange and flourescent. Just as an aside, you should be grateful that some of the prototype colours that we were presented with didn't make it into production; orange sidewall with cement tread, metalic blue sidewall with tobacco tread & flourescent green sidewall bith burgundy tread - any takers? YUK!

I guess what I am trying to say is thats its about matching what our competitors do so we don't lose sales ("I'd love to try the Pro3 but they don't make it in pink"), meeting our consumers demand whilst minimising our retailers stock holding requirements. I will obviously put the black/amber note in my report and note that there is a strong feeling for it in the UK and, if we can prove that there is actually a worthwhile global demand for this then I'm sure we will see it go into production in the near future.

[KidJambo]

Here's an idea for you; check all tyres off the production line and group those that are at the upper band of the tollerance, the medium ones and those that are on the lower end of the tolerance limits. That way people can choose how tight the tyres fit on the wheels.

Theoretically there is no difference between our tyres and the tollerences are minimal but I will bring this to the attention of the team - not sure how viable it is though

[KidJambo]

Here's an idea for you; check all tyres off the production line and group those that are at the upper band of the tollerance, the medium ones and those that are on the lower end of the tolerance limits. That way people can choose how tight the tyres fit on the wheels.

Theoretically there is no difference between our tyres and the tollerences are minimal but I will bring this to the attention of the team - not sure how viable it is though

Cue about a zillion message saying that there are differences between our tyres!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Whilst there seems to be quite a high percentage of people on here who would favour a black tread/amber sidewall combination, the market in general considers that quite retro

I thought that retro is having a mild resurgence at the moment.