Michelin Tyres - Product Requirements!

[GruB]

Yukkity yuk.  Amber side walls.  Boring.  Give me colours to match other colours on the bike anyday.  Co-ordination darling, that is the key.

[Really Ancien]

I can put my hand on my heart and say that I have not fitted a Michelin tyre to any of my bikes since 1976. I put them on Heather's bike, because I can only squeeze 23mm under the mudguards. Michelin don't strike me as 'serious' tyres. Continental. Vittoria, Vredenstein. Panaracer, Schwalbe,Hutchinson, red, green, all black and amber sidewalls, I've used them all. For some reason I look at a Michelin and think no.

Damon.

[KidJambo]

Yukkity yuk.  Amber side walls.  Boring.  Give me colours to match other colours on the bike anyday.  Co-ordination darling, that is the key.

My point exactly - one person in favour of retro (which is big at the moment but we are talking products for 2011 here so will it still be big then? do you have a crystal ball?) with another who wants co-ordinating colours - have you seen the array of colours that frame manufacturers use?

[KidJambo]

I can put my hand on my heart and say that I have not fitted a Michelin tyre to any of my bikes since 1976. I put them on Heather's bike, because I can only squeeze 23mm under the mudguards. Michelin don't strike me as 'serious' tyres. Continental. Vittoria, Vredenstein. Panaracer, Schwalbe,Hutchinson, red, green, all black and amber sidewalls, I've used them all. For some reason I look at a Michelin and think no.

Damon.

And for that may your sould burn in the fires of hell for all eternity!

I am joking - you are perfectly welcome to your opinions - I know I have them about just about everything - but can I ask you why you don't regard Michelin as a serious tyre brand? Is this just a cycle tyre thing or in general?

[Hot Flatus]

I can put my hand on my heart and say that I have not fitted a Michelin tyre to any of my bikes since 1976.

You don't know what you've been missing then.

[Really Ancien]

I am joking - you are perfectly welcome to your opinions - I know I have them about just about everything - but can I ask you why you don't regard Michelin as a serious tyre brand? Is this just a cycle tyre thing or in general?

I see Michelin as a premium brand, I have a couple of BF Goodrich tyres on my Land Rover, but these were bought before 2004, this quote will tell you why I don't now.

It is now owned by Michelin who operate BFGoodrich as the company's cross-ply offer in agricultural tyres. However, in 2004 Michelin took the decision to develop BFGoodrich car tyres as a higher margin band to be sold through selected dealers. This does not conform to our policy of selling at the best possible prices and therefore Etyres does not sell BF Goodrich car tyres. However we strongly recommend the BF Goodrich 4X4 range which is available through normal sourcing channels.

Goodriches are all right but no better than a number of other non-premium brands.
In bike tyres Michelin offer a graduated product range, which seem to put a premium on display. A shop will have a rack with increasing price towards the top, but they mostly seem to be 23mm, I'll pay about a tenner for a tyre for Heather, she pays, and won't notice the difference if I buy anything expensive. Puncture resistance and long mileage are critical.
I'm a long distance rider, and I'm very heavy, I also film from the bike on long rides, so I have mid -section rims to take pothole hits, I also want to take cattle grids at full pelt. Over 110 kilos at 50kph means a good chance of a snakebite puncture, So I poke around the back of Ribble cycles and search for rigid 28mm tyres capable of handling 100 psi, Michelin can offer me only a 25 mm folder that costs £25, so I go for a Continental Sport or a Gator Skin or a Panaracer 26 mm depending on how flush I feel, and what's cheapest. I might consider a cheap Michelin folder as a spare, lashed to the bike.
What Michelin needs is a tertiary brand of tyres in that £12.50 sector.

While you're here, could you explain why OEM tyres on cars have deeper tread than the replacement ones?

Damon.

[arry_b]

can I ask you why you don't regard Michelin as a serious tyre brand? Is this just a cycle tyre thing or in general?

That's an interesting question. For my car, I associate Michelin with long lasting, top of the line tyres - an investment if you will, and something worth paying extra for.

For my motorcycles, Michelin are average tyres and there are better tyres available. I've used a pair of M45s on one of my small bikes. The rear was short lasting but grippy, the front went thre'penny bit shaped well before it was worn out, so I wasn't impressed. Because of this I've never used Michelin on my bigger motorcycles.

Bicycles - Road / race bikes I perceive that Michelin are again top of the line stuff. When my OE tyres on my Allez wear out, I'll be replacing them with Michelin.

For my commuter bikes, I don't think you have a particularly brilliant image. My fast hybrid / tourer wears Conti sport contacts, my winter tank has lightly treaded WTB All-terrainasaurus. Nothing in the Michelin range jumped off of the page and shouted "buy me instead".

I do have a pair of World Tours on my 3 speed rod-braked Gentleman's Conveyance, and a pair of 20 inch Diablos on my folder but these were both bought because of their competitive price. Both are good tyres for what I need them to do, but they're not "aspirational".

[KidJambo]

I am joking - you are perfectly welcome to your opinions - I know I have them about just about everything - but can I ask you why you don't regard Michelin as a serious tyre brand? Is this just a cycle tyre thing or in general?

I see Michelin as a premium brand, I have a couple of BF Goodrich tyres on my Land Rover, but these were bought before 2004, this quote will tell you why I don't now.

It is now owned by Michelin who operate BFGoodrich as the company's cross-ply offer in agricultural tyres. However, in 2004 Michelin took the decision to develop BFGoodrich car tyres as a higher margin band to be sold through selected dealers. This does not conform to our policy of selling at the best possible prices and therefore Etyres does not sell BF Goodrich car tyres. However we strongly recommend the BF Goodrich 4X4 range which is available through normal sourcing channels.

Goodriches are all right but no better than a number of other non-premium brands.
In bike tyres Michelin offer a graduated product range, which seem to put a premium on display. A shop will have a rack with increasing price towards the top, but they mostly seem to be 23mm, I'll pay about a tenner for a tyre for Heather, she pays, and won't notice the difference if I buy anything expensive. Puncture resistance and long mileage are critical.
I'm a long distance rider, and I'm very heavy, I also film from the bike on long rides, so I have mid -section rims to take pothole hits, I also want to take cattle grids at full pelt. Over 110 kilos at 50kph means a good chance of a snakebite puncture, So I poke around the back of Ribble cycles and search for rigid 28mm tyres capable of handling 100 psi, Michelin can offer me only a 25 mm folder that costs £25, so I go for a Continental Sport or a Gator Skin or a Panaracer 26 mm depending on how flush I feel, and what's cheapest. I might consider a cheap Michelin folder as a spare, lashed to the bike.
What Michelin needs is a tertiary brand of tyres in that £12.50 sector.

Damon.

Thank you very much for your detailed answer. On the BF Goddrich aspect I cannot really comment as its not something I am aware of but I do know that we took the name that is well known for 4x4 product and used it on a brand of car tyres through a specific distribution network - no disimilar to what other brands do. At this time we don not have a multi-brand offer in cycle products but it is something that has been looked at before and, no doubt with be looked at again.

On the product then, you would like to see Michelin make a tyre in 28mm that was capable of holdaing a high pressure and offered puncture reinforcement - especially against sanke-bite ruptures?

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think Really Ancien has hit the nail on the head.

I do think it is partly perception. I've used Vittoria Randoneur in 1.5" and they were very similar in performance to Marathons. Not quite as good, but a LOT cheaper. The michelin equivalent is the Transworld, which has somehow garnered a poor reputation. I thought it very good. It replaced Schwalbe Hurricanes on the hybrid, and was much better.

However, Transworlds are hard to find in the shops. Change some of the tread (solid smooth section in the middle), add a puncture-resistant belt and you have a good tyre.

[KidJambo]

can I ask you why you don't regard Michelin as a serious tyre brand? Is this just a cycle tyre thing or in general?

That's an interesting question. For my car, I associate Michelin with long lasting, top of the line tyres - an investment if you will, and something worth paying extra for.

For my motorcycles, Michelin are average tyres and there are better tyres available. I've used a pair of M45s on one of my small bikes. The rear was short lasting but grippy, the front went thre'penny bit shaped well before it was worn out, so I wasn't impressed. Because of this I've never used Michelin on my bigger motorcycles.

Bicycles - Road / race bikes I perceive that Michelin are again top of the line stuff. When my OE tyres on my Allez wear out, I'll be replacing them with Michelin.

For my commuter bikes, I don't think you have a particularly brilliant image. My fast hybrid / tourer wears Conti sport contacts, my winter tank has lightly treaded WTB All-terrainasaurus. Nothing in the Michelin range jumped off of the page and shouted "buy me instead".

I do have a pair of World Tours on my 3 speed rod-braked Gentleman's Conveyance, and a pair of 20 inch Diablos on my folder but these were both bought because of their competitive price. Both are good tyres for what I need them to do, but they're not "aspirational".

It is funny how people percieve things in different ways. There was a asurvey done of tyre brands a couple of years back and Michelin kept coming back as "safe", "dependable", "reliable" etc whereas Pirelli and Dunlop were seen as "sporty" and "dynamic" eventhough, at the time, we were spending millions on Formula1 and MotoGP etc

Hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion etc and I am not hear to try and change things or anyones minds. I agree completely with your comment that we have no commuter range in the past - the stronghold of Schwalbe and Conti for sure - but as its the fastest growing market in Europe we certainly want a peice of the pie and now have, what I believe, is a very good offer with more products planned.

I think it is sometimes hard to get the positioning of a brand right. We have always prided ourselves on being a premium brand - worth paying that extra bit extra for as you said - which probably helps us strength in car tyres for BMW drivers and for lightweight road cyclists but makes things harder when you try to sell to a cheaper audience - people who aren't prepared or can't afford to pay the extra or think that they are just paying for the name.

[KidJambo]

I think Really Ancien has hit the nail on the head.

I do think it is partly perception. I've used Vittoria Randoneur in 1.5" and they were very similar in performance to Marathons. Not quite as good, but a LOT cheaper. The michelin equivalent is the Transworld, which has somehow garnered a poor reputation. I thought it very good. It replaced Schwalbe Hurricanes on the hybrid, and was much better.

However, Transworlds are hard to find in the shops. Change some of the tread (solid smooth section in the middle), add a puncture-resistant belt and you have a good tyre.

Transworlds are hard to find as they have been replaced in the commuter range. We now have the City (cut slick pattern with a punctuyre band under the tread) and the Pilot City (similar cut slick pattern, 5mm puncture band under tread AND 1mm protection on sidewall and a reflective band on sidewall for safety) - would this make a "good tyre" for you?

[Really Ancien]

On the product then, you would like to see Michelin make a tyre in 28mm that was capable of holdaing a high pressure and offered puncture reinforcement - especially against sanke-bite ruptures?

I don't know if is a big enough market, Continental and Panaracer have it largely sewn up, Michelin seem to specialise in that plastic wrapped stuff that hangs on a rack well. I can see that that works well for distribution, but I don't know if you could present anything with a deeper tread and stronger sidewalls that way. I had the weakness of Gator Skins brought home to me over the summer when I rode the forestry track beside Loch Shiel from Glenfinnan, that cost me £35, my fault I know, but that's about as far as you can go with a folder. If you're making money from the premium road sector, stick with it.
There are plenty of people here who would welcome an Audax tyre from Michelin, priced about £15, if you offered some for test for LEL, for instance you'd get your hand bitten off, you'd need to be sure they were good enough though.

Damon.

[MSeries]

There are plenty of people here who would welcome an Audax tyre from Michelin, priced about £15, if you offered some for test for LEL, for instance you'd get your hand bitten off, you'd need to be sure they were good enough though.

KidJambo did offer me some tyres in 2007 for test and review. I broke my pelvis and had to decline, back on the road now though KidJambo !

[KidJambo]

There are plenty of people here who would welcome an Audax tyre from Michelin, priced about £15, if you offered some for test for LEL, for instance you'd get your hand bitten off, you'd need to be sure they were good enough though.

KidJambo did offer me some tyres in 2007 for test and review. I broke my pelvis and had to decline, back on the road now though KidJambo !

I actually still have you mail in my inbox on here! lol

When I find out whats happening with our Pilot Sport - new lightweight commuter tyre to sompete with Schwalbe Marathon Supreme - and what sizes we are going to offer maybe I can come back to you?

[MSeries]

There are plenty of people here who would welcome an Audax tyre from Michelin, priced about £15, if you offered some for test for LEL, for instance you'd get your hand bitten off, you'd need to be sure they were good enough though.

KidJambo did offer me some tyres in 2007 for test and review. I broke my pelvis and had to decline, back on the road now though KidJambo !

I actually still have you mail in my inbox on here! lol

When I find out whats happening with our Pilot Sport - new lightweight commuter tyre to sompete with Schwalbe Marathon Supreme - and what sizes we are going to offer maybe I can come back to you?

Of course, my contact details have not changed, nor have my tyre requirements though I am using 25s rather than 28s for this year since getting some new wheels.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think Really Ancien has hit the nail on the head.

I do think it is partly perception. I've used Vittoria Randoneur in 1.5" and they were very similar in performance to Marathons. Not quite as good, but a LOT cheaper. The michelin equivalent is the Transworld, which has somehow garnered a poor reputation. I thought it very good. It replaced Schwalbe Hurricanes on the hybrid, and was much better.

However, Transworlds are hard to find in the shops. Change some of the tread (solid smooth section in the middle), add a puncture-resistant belt and you have a good tyre.

Transworlds are hard to find as they have been replaced in the commuter range. We now have the City (cut slick pattern with a punctuyre band under the tread) and the Pilot City (similar cut slick pattern, 5mm puncture band under tread AND 1mm protection on sidewall and a reflective band on sidewall for safety) - would this make a "good tyre" for you?

I would probably try a City. I'll warn you, I'm very hard on tyres, and very picky. Also a cheapskate.

If you made a city and pilot city in 16", Brompton owners would try it (anyone know the erto for Brompton wheels?).

I've never seen one in a shop, tho'. That is part of the problem. Schwalbe are becoming the Microsoft of the bike tyre world. That's where you are losing your sales, KJ. I think you need to get some promotional tyres out there, hit with some aggressive discounting on initial orders. Something to get the bike shops to stock the tyres.

[Really Ancien]

I'm your man for 28mm.
Check out my website.

Damon.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

If you made a city and pilot city in 16", Brompton owners would try it (anyone know the erto for Brompton wheels?).

349 but Michelin are leaving the 'funny sizes' to Schwalbe, as noted by KidJambo earlier in the thread.

[KidJambo]

I think Really Ancien has hit the nail on the head.

I do think it is partly perception. I've used Vittoria Randoneur in 1.5" and they were very similar in performance to Marathons. Not quite as good, but a LOT cheaper. The michelin equivalent is the Transworld, which has somehow garnered a poor reputation. I thought it very good. It replaced Schwalbe Hurricanes on the hybrid, and was much better.

However, Transworlds are hard to find in the shops. Change some of the tread (solid smooth section in the middle), add a puncture-resistant belt and you have a good tyre.

Transworlds are hard to find as they have been replaced in the commuter range. We now have the City (cut slick pattern with a punctuyre band under the tread) and the Pilot City (similar cut slick pattern, 5mm puncture band under tread AND 1mm protection on sidewall and a reflective band on sidewall for safety) - would this make a "good tyre" for you?

I would probably try a City. I'll warn you, I'm very hard on tyres, and very picky. Also a cheapskate.

If you made a city and pilot city in 16", Brompton owners would try it (anyone know the erto for Brompton wheels?).

I've never seen one in a shop, tho'. That is part of the problem. Schwalbe are becoming the Microsoft of the bike tyre world. That's where you are losing your sales, KJ. I think you need to get some promotional tyres out there, hit with some aggressive discounting on initial orders. Something to get the bike shops to stock the tyres.

And therein lies part of the problem - because of the way we distribute tyres from a central-European hub, we deal with a number of wholesale distribution partners in the UK and not the retail trade directly. I worked with Raleigh at their dealer convention last week and they had a buy-in offer on commuter tyres for their dealers which had quite a good uptake but this is the only way that I can get the products out there. The other thing - and maybe you guys might have some thoughts on this - is what media would be best to advertise/promote this sort of tyre. With a premium road or MTb tyre it is easy - there are a plethora of magazine titles alweays happy to test and advertise your new products - but what about commuter-ytype tyres; as far as I am aware there is not a magazine called "Commuter Cyclist Monthly" and even if there was I'm not sure if it would have sufficient circulation to make it viable!

[KidJambo]

If you made a city and pilot city in 16", Brompton owners would try it (anyone know the erto for Brompton wheels?).

349 but Michelin are leaving the 'funny sizes' to Schwalbe, as noted by KidJambo earlier in the thread.

You will also note I said that some "funny sizes" are worth considering because there is potential for growth or it is a niche market tht we would like to be present in and then some of the usual rules go out of "la fenêtre"!

[nuttycyclist]

can I ask you why you don't regard Michelin as a serious tyre brand? Is this just a cycle tyre thing or in general?

That's an interesting question. For my car, I associate Michelin with long lasting, top of the line tyres - an investment if you will, and something worth paying extra for.

For my motorcycles, Michelin are average tyres and there are better tyres available. I've used a pair of M45s on one of my small bikes. The rear was short lasting but grippy, the front went thre'penny bit shaped well before it was worn out, so I wasn't impressed. Because of this I've never used Michelin on my bigger motorcycles.

Bicycles - Road / race bikes I perceive that Michelin are again top of the line stuff. When my OE tyres on my Allez wear out, I'll be replacing them with Michelin.

For my commuter bikes, I don't think you have a particularly brilliant image. My fast hybrid / tourer wears Conti sport contacts, my winter tank has lightly treaded WTB All-terrainasaurus. Nothing in the Michelin range jumped off of the page and shouted "buy me instead".

I do have a pair of World Tours on my 3 speed rod-braked Gentleman's Conveyance, and a pair of 20 inch Diablos on my folder but these were both bought because of their competitive price. Both are good tyres for what I need them to do, but they're not "aspirational".

That reminds me.

I had Michelins on the BMW when I bought it.  I kept spinning the car    but quickly learned to control it and that to turn right simply needed a heavy right foot instead of turning the steering wheel much.

When I needed new tyres I was on holiday and the tyre place didn't have any identical tyres so I got Dunlops.   I had to learn to drive again as I couldn't get the back wheels to lose traction unless it was snowy.

I probably wouldn't get Michelins for the car again, even though our two are front wheel drive now.


Compare that to the motorbike - I've had Michelins since new, and have no problems with them.


Bicycle - well I'll test ride anything that turns up in the post 

....You will also note I said that some "funny sizes" are worth considering because there is potential for growth or it is a niche market tht we would like to be present in and then some of the usual rules go out of "la fenêtre"!

ps, I ride a windheetah, a niche market with funny wheels.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think that the closest to a 'commuter' magazine is C+.

Word of mouth is good. Like this forum. It has a small but growing membership. There is also velovision and A-2-B.

Bikeforums.net is much much bigger, but USA-centric.

This problem is why Jim conceived the encycleopedia cycle show. There was only ever one, held at the York racecourse. It's sole purpose was to enable manufacturers to exhibit bikes and components. That was one of the funnest days I've ever had.

I know some shops get samples sent direct from distributors; a friend runs a small shop in York, and we discussed some tyres he'd had on trial.

[KidJambo]

I think that the closest to a 'commuter' magazine is C+.

Word of mouth is good. Like this forum. It has a small but growing membership. There is also velovision and A-2-B.

Bikeforums.net is much much bigger, but USA-centric.

This problem is why Jim conceived the encycleopedia cycle show. There was only ever one, held at the York racecourse. It's sole purpose was to enable manufacturers to exhibit bikes and components. That was one of the funnest days I've ever had.

I know some shops get samples sent direct from distributors; a friend runs a small shop in York, and we discussed some tyres he'd had on trial.

We did the York Show a few times but opinion was that it was turning - like many shows - into a bit of a jumble sale!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

My point exactly - one person in favour of retro (which is big at the moment but we are talking products for 2011 here so will it still be big then? do you have a crystal ball?) with another who wants co-ordinating colours - have you seen the array of colours that frame manufacturers use?

It sounds like my preference would be easier for a retailer to satisfy than GruB's.  Black with amber will do it every time for me while GruB will want a different colour combination every time he buys a new bike, to match the fashion du jour.

[mrcharly-YHT]

We did the York Show a few times but opinion was that it was turning - like many shows - into a bit of a jumble sale!

Not the ctc cycle rally. The Encycleopedia show. There was only ever one.