Author Topic: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?  (Read 62139 times)

Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« on: June 04, 2009, 10:02:37 pm »
a sneak preview of an article and system to be rolled out in August;

There has been a lot of interest in the “DIY + calendar” ride concept since it was introduced in 2005. Many riders have found the system a useful means of not only reducing their carbon footprint by avoiding car journeys to the start of events, but also as a means of extending calendar events and thus providing a convenient ride for RRTY and the SR series where there may not be a local alternative

However there were a few disadvantages to converting calendar events into DIY’s and a new system is to be given a trial to try to overcome these disadvantages and also to help reduce the workload on the already busy regional events secretaries who currently handle all “DIY + Calendar” entries.

The new system will enable the calendar event to which the add-on is attached to;

1.Retain the rider’s record as having completed it rather than it just becoming an anonymous DIY against the rides list; thus reflecting on the real number of riders who have ridden the calendar event
2.Retain any applicable AAA points
3.Remain eligible for the AUK points championship (the add-on portion will remain as a permanent ride for the purposes of the award)
 

A new ride will be available; Extended Calendar Event and will be listed on the website in the permanents under my name (various combinations of distances are available; please contact me if you wish to devise another combination and it will be included)

In order to register for this new ride the rider must do the following;

 
Enter the calendar event in the normal way; please if possible advise the organiser that you are extending the ride on the day by the use of the ECE as a courtesy; the organiser should however not be required to do anything different with your entry.

Enter the ECE through myself; either by using a standard entry form including an SAE or by using Paypal online entry, the fee for either system is £2.50. Much like existing DIY rides entrants must include details of controls from where they wish to start and finish the ride. Please also ensure that the number of the calendar event from the calendar is included as the add-on ride will only be validated on validation of the calendar event This can be anywhere provided the normal “proof of passage” in the form of a timed receipt or ATM slip clearly showing the location, or a suitable stamp, signature and time is obtained for each control point.

Unlike a normal DIY a special card is required and thus entries must be made to myself at least 14 days prior to the date of the calendar event; but please allow longer if possible in case I am away from home at the time of the ride. If you have entered via PayPal the information should be sent to me in a separate e-mail or included as a message with the PayPal payment.
 
Entrants are requested to, as far as possible, ensure that the proposed “add-on” ride covers the minimum required distance between controls and the start / finish of the calendar event. The actual distance of each leg to and from the event is not critical provided the total distance of the combined calendar event and the ECE is of the minimum standard Randonneur distance (ie 200 300 400 or 600km), only rides which give a total combined distance of these distances will be entertained for the trial period. Some riders may prefer to ride a longer distance to the start of the event and a shorter distance from the finish or vice versa. In some cases, for example if the rider returns by train the entire “add-on” may be before the calendar event. The minimum distance may be calculated by either Microsoft Autoroute or using the free online ViaMichelin: Maps, route planner, route finder, UK maps, European maps, hotel booking, travel guides set to shortest route, be aware though that viamichelin only allows a limited number of control points. Control points should be a maximum of 70km apart.
 
Overdistance events of each distance are allowed and will be given a longer pro-rata time allowance; however only the minimum distance between control points and the calendar event start will be taken into account in calculating the overall time for the total ride. Riders are free to take whichever route they wish between control points and the calendar event start but please ensure it is not greatly in excess of the shortest route to give you enough time to complete all legs of the ride. 
 
On receipt of the entry I will check the distance between the start of the ride and the calendar event to ensure it meets the minimum distance and if it does I will forward the proposed route to the AUK permanent events secretary and  forward you a brevet card; this will have your proposed controls with the opening and closing times (based on a minimum and maximum overall average speed of 14.3- 30kph of the combined ride) of each written in. This card may not be re-used, in the event that the add-on is not ridden on the day only the calendar event will be validated.
 
If the proposed route is found to be underdistance I will advise on the shortfall and possible ways to correct it; so please allow plenty of time before you ride in case the route needs alteration. This may include additional “doglegs” to add extra controls and distance to the route if practicable.
 
On the day of the event;
 
Ensure you leave enough time to ride from the add-on ride start to the start of the calendar event; no alterations to the control times or average speed of the calendar event (which may be lower or higher than 14.3kph) will be allowed and you must obtain proof of passage on the ECE brevet card at the start so allow plenty of time to do this and also prepare for the calendar event start.
Ride the calendar event as normal; handing in the brevet card for the calendar event only at the end as the organiser will validate this, but obtain a stamp / sticker / signature in the appropriate box of the ECE brevet card.
Complete the remainder of the ECE ride (if applicable) obtaining proof of passage in the normal way.
 
In order to get the ride validated return the completed add-on brevet card to myself (make a copy or scan it in case it gets lost in the post) with another SAE. The card will be checked and forwarded to the AUK permanent events secretary. The additional points applicable to the add-on section will be added once the calendar ride has been validated and your card will be returned; the additional points will be allocated following validation of both rides, e.g
 
Calendar 100  + ECE 100 = 0 calendar points + 2 perm points
Calendar 200  + ECE 100 = 2 calendar points + 1 perm points
Calendar 300  + ECE 300 = 3 calendar points + 3 perm points
 
For the purposes of RRTY and Randonneur awards the combined total distance will be that applicable as before using the DIY permanent system
 
I hope the new system will prove popular; happy riding!

 Martin


Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »
Excellent work Monsieur Malins.

Quick question. Which measurement of the calendar ride distance is used?

For example, one particular 200km Audax is 214km according to the routesheet (and calendar), but (from memory) 208km as shortest distance between controls (but using not so nice roads). Does this count as 214km, 208km or 200km?

In the past, I've always assumed x00 km and taken the extra as free bonus kilometers. :)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2009, 11:54:53 pm »
Excellent work Monsieur Malins.

Quick question. Which measurement of the calendar ride distance is used?

For example, one particular 200km Audax is 214km according to the routesheet (and calendar), but (from memory) 208km as shortest distance between controls (but using not so nice roads). Does this count as 214km, 208km or 200km?

In the past, I've always assumed x00 km and taken the extra as free bonus kilometers. :)

I think it's best to assume that 214 in this case is actually 208; I know it means you will go overdistance by extending it but we need to ensure that the minimum overall distance is at least 2 3 4 or 600km.

Obviously most riders will not know the minimum distance between controls of a calendar event, just the published distance, but where it's considerably over it's probably best to assume that there are shortcuts possible.

the short answer is always add at least a round number of extra km to the calendar event eg 50 100 200 etc. Remember you get extra time for overdistance events provided the overdistance is the minimum between controls.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2009, 09:44:59 am »
Good work that man!

Entrants are requested to, as far as possible, ensure that the proposed “add-on” ride covers the minimum required distance between controls and the start / finish of the calendar event.
What does this mean? Is it just re-stating standard DIY rules?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2009, 09:49:20 am »
It just seems to be another way to make your life more complicated

Just ride to the start without extra controls.  Do the event and get whatever points it's worth.  Then ride home

I'd rather be on my bike than driving a car so this makes sense to me
Audaxing Blog follow @vorsprungbike on

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2009, 09:55:43 am »
It just seems to be another way to make your life more complicated

Just ride to the start without extra controls.  Do the event and get whatever points it's worth.  Then ride home

I'd rather be on my bike than driving a car so this makes sense to me
With respect V, we've had this debate before. LOTS of us like doing rides this way - if you don't, just ignore Martin's article :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

mikewigley

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2009, 10:13:38 am »
For the purposes of RRTY and Randonneur awards the combined total distance will be that applicable as before using the DIY permanent system

I like the sound of this and it means that all riders taking part in the Calendar event will be listed on the results for that event, not just those doing it as a stand-alone ride.

Do you know how the event will be listed on the online results page?  (I look at this to verify RRTY claims).  If it shows that someone did a 100km Calendar and a 100km add-on Perm on the same date, I won't necessarily read that as a 200km Randonnee.

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2009, 10:24:43 am »
Nice work Martin.

I assume this doesn't impact on the current DIY system in any way - only those that include a Calendar event?

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2009, 11:39:11 am »
It just seems to be another way to make your life more complicated

Just ride to the start without extra controls.  Do the event and get whatever points it's worth.  Then ride home

I'd rather be on my bike than driving a car so this makes sense to me
With respect V, we've had this debate before. LOTS of us like doing rides this way - if you don't, just ignore Martin's article :)

I'm sorry, I am a simple soul and this whole thing baffles me  ??? ;D
Audaxing Blog follow @vorsprungbike on

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2009, 11:44:45 am »
I'm sorry, I am a simple soul and this whole thing baffles me  ??? ;D

Due to other commitments I had only one weekend free in February and there was no easy to get to calendar 200 that weekend and I've got half-arsed goals of a RTTY.

My choices were:-

a) To ride my DIY 200 route which goes right past the start of 100km calendar ride

b) Big hassle journey to the start of a calendar 200 involving several trains and lots of waiting

c) Do a DIY+Calendar, get up early (4.30am) and ride the 75km to the start of the calendar event, do the calendar 100km ride, then ride 75km home collecting a receipt for my DIY 200 on the way.

The third option cost more (since the calendar 100 was more expensive to enter than my DIY) but it was nicer riding a calendar event with other people.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2009, 11:47:57 am »
The third option cost more (since the calendar 100 was more expensive to enter than my DIY) but it was nicer riding a calendar event with other people.
You have to be spot on with your timing though. It's is incredibly annoying riding to an event only to discover all your company for the day buggered off 10 minutes previously!

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2009, 11:51:55 am »
The third option cost more (since the calendar 100 was more expensive to enter than my DIY) but it was nicer riding a calendar event with other people.
You have to be spot on with your timing though. It's is incredibly annoying riding to an event only to discover all your company for the day buggered off 10 minutes previously!

Calendar event started at 9am so I set off at 5am giving myself 4 hours to do the 75km (18.75kph). I got to the start at 8am. :)

Of course, within 5 minutes of starting most people had shot off infront of me anyway.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2009, 12:18:56 pm »
The timing can be challenging, but it hasn't been too bad for the ones I've done this year (albeit not entered as DIY + Calendar, just ridden as the calendar but with the whole lot in AUK time limits). Setting off from home with the maximum allowed time for the 175-225K to get to the ride (i.e. around 10-12 hours before the ride start time) gives time to get there and grab a bit of kip before the start.

I have given up trying to register these longer rides as "real" DIYs; I'm not chasing points or RRTY this year, so it just seems like too much hassle all round generating routes, worrying about controls, and having everything validated. I've decided to just ride, but log my mileage for my own interest (obviously entering the calendar events as normal).

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2009, 12:33:22 pm »
it just seems like too much hassle all round generating routes, worrying about controls, and having everything validated. I've decided to just ride, but log my mileage for my own interest (obviously entering the calendar events as normal).

If you've got a route in mind then (which you'll need regardless of whether you do the ride or not) then just pick a bunch of control towns 50-70km apart along the way. Submit it regardless of the distance (so if it's 390km then so be it, you just won't get 4 points for it but you'll get the appropriate amount of time) and then ride it. Doesn't take more than an hour's worth of effort to do once you've got your route sorted.

An ATM receipt takes less than a minute and a stop at a cafe or petrol station for food gets you a useful receipt.

Of course, if you can't be arsed then it's less to worry about.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Weirdy Biker

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2009, 12:49:57 pm »

3.Remain eligible for the AUK points championship if applicable (the add-on portion will remain as a permanent ride for the purposes of the award)

<snip>

Calendar 100  + add on 100 = 0 calendar points + 2 perm points
Calendar 200  + add on 100 = 2 calendar points + 1 perm points
Calendar 300  + add on 300 = 3 calendar points + 3 perm points
 

I do not believe Regulation 4.2 permits this.  That regulation clearly stipulates that rides must either be permanents or calendar events.  There is not a "hybrid" event classification.  

Consequently, the whole ride would have to be a permanent event.  Or a 2xpermanent + a calendar event.  Or a 1xpermenant and a calendar event, assuming the permanent is done within the time limit from start to finish (i.e. if you did a 100+200+100 then you would have to complete the whole ride within 14.5 hours to get the 2 points from the two permanents).  Also, the 2xpermenent wouldn't give you two points if each was 100km split by a calendar event.

I believe this means that the impact on the AUK points championship as laid out in 10.1 stands.

I believe changing the Regulations requires a motion at an AGM?  I am not aware that this has been debated and passed.  So, to close the circle, you might need to put a resolution forward (and until such time as its passed it needs more careful explanation as to what the implications for points are)?

Also, this may have implications for what the finishing lists of the calendar event can show.  Strictly speaking, if the member treats it as a continuous ride, then my understanding is that he must be recorded as a DNF on the calendar event.  He cannot be recorded as a finisher.  Admittedly this is likely to be an administrative point, as I anticipate the lists sent through to ACP, for example, would omit these riders - consequently meaning they wouldn't count towards BRM validation.  But it is probably worth pointing this latter point out (as it is likely to impact on validity of rides for PBP qualification or counting towards the BRM5000 award, for example).

Or am I missing something?

PS: saying this to be helpful as I think the concept is excellent.  All we need to do now is get rid of rule 10.1 in relation to points from permanents(!)

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2009, 12:53:52 pm »
I'm sorry, I am a simple soul and this whole thing baffles me  ??? ;D

Due to other commitments I had only one weekend free in February and there was no easy to get to calendar 200 that weekend and I've got half-arsed goals of a RTTY.

c) Do a DIY+Calendar, get up early (4.30am) and ride the 75km to the start of the calendar event, do the calendar 100km ride, then ride 75km home collecting a receipt for my DIY 200 on the way.

The third option cost more (since the calendar 100 was more expensive to enter than my DIY) but it was nicer riding a calendar event with other people.

In February the conditions didn't favour long rides for most of the month either.  I just looked at my BJ thing for Feb and it says "ice" on it rather a lot
However, I did ride a 100km audax on March 1st where I rode to the start.  Total score for that was 173km.  Could have easily pushed that out to 200km.
Starting at 430am from where I live would involve a diversion to the "start" of a DIY as 24 hour controls are a few miles off

I'm just trying to think of a way that this system could have helped me get my SR in 2008.  I failed to get a 400 due to missing early season stuff with a knackered collar bone and then it raining relentlessly in July.  I attempted a DIY 400 in July but failed to get back in 27 hours due to the terrible weather

I did do a local 200 on one of the better weekends in July.  I suppose it is conceivable that I could have extended that to a 100+200+100.  I think I would have had to get up at 3am to make a 24 hour control and then the start.  That sounds less like fun to me and too much like hard work.  Audax rides are supposed to be fun aren't they?  Or am I missing the point.  Again.
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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2009, 01:13:44 pm »
Audax rides are supposed to be fun aren't they?  Or am I missing the point.  Again.

I think the relevant quote is "If it's fun you're not doing it right." :)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2009, 01:30:41 pm »
Audax rides are supposed to be fun aren't they?  Or am I missing the point.  Again.

I think the relevant quote is "If it's fun you're not doing it right." :)

Oh.  I guess I rarely do it right then. 
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frankly frankie

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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2009, 03:42:26 pm »
Also, this may have implications for what the finishing lists of the calendar event can show.  Strictly speaking, if the member treats it as a continuous ride, then my understanding is that he must be recorded as a DNF on the calendar event.  He cannot be recorded as a finisher. 

This whole project is an attempt to circumvent that, which is how things stand at present with 'parallel DIY' rides, and enable the event part of the ride to 'count'.

You may be right about Reg4.2 although personally I think it would be possible to 'interpret' the existing wording in a way that allows all this.  A bigger problem regs-wise might be the supposition that a 100km add-on can count for 1 perm point.  But assuming it can, then I can't see much difficulty with say 200km add-on, split down the middle by an event, being worth 2.

But in any case this can't have much impact on the present season (because it has to be published in Arrivee first, and that won't be out before late August) so if an AGM motion is needed (I hope not!) in practical terms not much time will be lost.

I don't see any practical difficulty with how all this would display in the results - you'd just get something like
Dorset Coast   Fred Bloggs   2
Dorset Coast   Maud Bloggs  2
Dorset Coast   Fred Nirk       2   +   1
Dorset Coast   Willy Wally    2
etc
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2009, 03:45:17 pm »
Dorset Coast   Fred Bloggs   2
Dorset Coast   Maud Bloggs  2
Dorset Coast   Fred Nirk       2   +   1
Dorset Coast   Willy Wally    2

Dorset Coast   S Abraham    2    +    8

 :)

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2009, 04:03:06 pm »
OK, so how about:

The Dean 300 + 100km from Oxford to Stevenage + Stevenage Start Of Summertime 200

One year I'll do it. :) (with optional 100km rides from home to Oxford and from Stevenage to home)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Weirdy Biker

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2009, 04:46:26 pm »
Some reasonable stuff, as per usual

I suspect it's a case of dotting the i's and crossing the t's.  No doubt the committee and Martin will get comfortable that what they are doing is within the Regs (the challenge being that rides can only be classified as permanents or calendar events under the current regs with a consequent impact, for example on regulation 10).

As FF remarks, the main area where the Regs may need amending, is that it appears 100km points cannot be allowed for in isolation (even if it is 100km to the event and 100km back from the event, adding up to 200km).

Weirdy Biker

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2009, 04:52:41 pm »
Quote from: frankly frankie link=topic=19768.msg353933#msg353933
Then I can't see much difficulty with say 200km add-on, split down the middle by an event, being worth 2.

Impact of the speed/limit regulation suggests to me that the ride needs to complete the two 100km legs and the calendar event, all within 14.5 hours.

As I say, the regulations do not appear you to split rides between calendar and permanent events.

A suggested amendment is that 4.2 is extended to say something along the lines that:

"For the purpose of awards, the Permanent Organiser can direct that part of a permanent event shall be treated as if it were part of a calendar event."

or some such.  Although this would still mean (for example) that the rider won't have finished the calendar event (with consequent impact on BRM validation).  Better minds than mine will find the right approach to best facilitate this good idea.

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2009, 05:30:38 pm »
or some such.  Although this would still mean (for example) that the rider won't have finished the calendar event (with consequent impact on BRM validation).  Better minds than mine will find the right approach to best facilitate this good idea.

BRM validation in 2010 will count for the calculation of the UK (or other) quota for PBP. So changing the system in the way Martin proposes should be done this year and noth somewhere next year.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2009, 05:41:08 pm »
OK, so how about:

The Dean 300 + 100km from Oxford to Stevenage + Stevenage Start Of Summertime 200

One year I'll do it. :) (with optional 100km rides from home to Oxford and from Stevenage to home)
There seem to be 3 main answers to this:
- Don't be a smart arse.
- Possible in theory, but in practice the start/finish times wouldn't line up, so Martin could disallow on those grounds (and to save his sanity).
- Easier to do it as 2 x 300s.(or 2x400s from home) If you need this 600 for an SR, you're really grasping at straws!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles