Author Topic: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?  (Read 61967 times)

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Virtual Alps
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2009, 05:47:16 pm »
However it pans out, the firm intention (AIUI) is that existing Calendar events will not be impacted in any way.  Whatever is done, is done to work around the events.

Regarding reg 4.2, I would suggest that at any moment in time, you could ask "what is this rider doing at the moment?" and get the answer, either "an event" or "a permanent".  Its two separate organisers, two separate cards, two separate validations.  Yes, we might need a new sub-class of Perm to handle this, but that happened when DIYs were introduced as well, without any need for regulation change.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2009, 05:51:11 pm »
or some such.  Although this would still mean (for example) that the rider won't have finished the calendar event (with consequent impact on BRM validation).  Better minds than mine will find the right approach to best facilitate this good idea.

BRM validation in 2010 will count for the calculation of the UK (or other) quota for PBP. So changing the system in the way Martin proposes should be done this year and noth somewhere next year.

As I'm a little confused ...

Are you guys saying that one could do a BRM ride (e.g. qualify or pre-qualify(2010) for PBP) in this way? I'm assuming only the *calendar* part would count!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Weirdy Biker

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2009, 06:57:24 pm »
However it pans out, the firm intention (AIUI) is that existing Calendar events will not be impacted in any way.  Whatever is done, is done to work around the events.

Regarding reg 4.2, I would suggest that at any moment in time, you could ask "what is this rider doing at the moment?" and get the answer, either "an event" or "a permanent".  Its two separate organisers, two separate cards, two separate validations.  Yes, we might need a new sub-class of Perm to handle this, but that happened when DIYs were introduced as well, without any need for regulation change.

I agree with you and anticipate that someone will go through the Regulations to ensure all is ship shape and working as we think it should.

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2009, 07:06:47 pm »
There seem to be 3 main answers to this:
- Don't be a smart arse.

But but but...

- Possible in theory, but in practice the start/finish times wouldn't line up, so Martin could disallow on those grounds (and to save his sanity).

The start times do line up, well, almost, that's why it's a possible goer.

As you know, The Dean 300km starts at 6am Saturday and finishes at *rummages* 3.29am (GMT, so 4.29am BST). I'd then have about 4 hours to do the 90km to the start. More than likely I'd be finishing The Dean with a couple of hours to spare (ideally more than that) to give me 6 hours to do the 90km to the Start Of Summertime (if not then it's my fault for taking on too much, can't expect the SoS organiser to wait around for hours for me to turn up).

- Easier to do it as 2 x 300s.(or 2x400s from home) If you need this 600 for an SR, you're really grasping at straws!

Easier is less audacious, doesn't AUK exist to promote long distance cycling? ;)

One 600 is worth "more" than 2x300 which is worth "more" than 3x200, which (opening can of worms) is worth more than 100x100. ;)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2009, 07:17:36 pm »
As you know, The Dean 300km starts at 6am Saturday and finishes at *rummages* 3.29am (GMT, so 4.29am BST).

Oh crikey - I'd forgotten the BST thing! I suggest you submit this ride to Mr Malins forthwith. and ask him to confirm the finish control time :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

chris

  • (aka chris)
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2009, 07:38:19 pm »
Does the lower speed limit apply to each individual stage or just to the calendar part and the overall ride?

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2009, 09:57:45 pm »
or some such.  Although this would still mean (for example) that the rider won't have finished the calendar event (with consequent impact on BRM validation).  Better minds than mine will find the right approach to best facilitate this good idea.

BRM validation in 2010 will count for the calculation of the UK (or other) quota for PBP. So changing the system in the way Martin proposes should be done this year and noth somewhere next year.

As I'm a little confused ...

Are you guys saying that one could do a BRM ride (e.g. qualify or pre-qualify(2010) for PBP) in this way? I'm assuming only the *calendar* part would count!

Only the calender part (if BRM) counts. But if you do a DIY according to the 'old' rules you would be registered as DNF in the calender event, so you wouldn't show up in the BRM statistics. So you wouldn't be able to help increas the quota of your country since DNF's don't count for that.

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2009, 10:11:27 pm »
Does the lower speed limit apply to each individual stage or just to the calendar part and the overall ride?

The calendar event timelimits are going to be immovable, so you need to plan the DIY start time to suit. For example:-

Imagine you do a 300km calendar event and then a 200km ride home. If the calendar event is 15kph minimum then you're stuck with the 20 hour time limit for that part. However you'll have almost 35 hours (in total) to finish the 500km (500/14.3 =~ 34h58).

If you do a 100km ride to a 100km calendar event that starts at 9am then you can't start earlier than 2am. If you start at 4am then you don't get an extra 2 hours for the calendar event as the organiser may have gone home, you can't expect them to wait for you...

If you do a 100km ride to a 100km calendar event that starts at 9am and then 100km ride home, you could start at 4am, knock off the first 100km in 5 hours in time to start the 100km calendar event, even if you finish that event right on its timelimit (4pm if it's 14.3kph) then you've got 9 hours (until 1am) to finish the whole 300km ride.

A 100km grimpeur event with a 10kph minimum speed, followed by 100km home would be interesting. The whole ride should be done within 14 hours, but I'm not sure if you really could take 10 hours to do the first 100km and then catch up the remaining 100km in the final 4 hours. Probably as it's not a major problem (as I understand it) to be out of time at intermediate controls if there's a good enough reason.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2009, 01:05:06 am »
all the possible permutations are now available from the permanents section of the AUK website;

if you want to do a Paypal entry just forward the dosh to the email shown with your name AUK no. and address; the calendar event you wish to extend, the controls you wish to use to extend it and I'll do the rest (apart from ride it)  :)

Does the lower speed limit apply to each individual stage or just to the calendar part and the overall ride?

to clarify; for all extended events; the overall minimum speed of the whole extended event is 14.3kph. The control times of the calendar event may not be altered. As I will not see any of these calendar event times all that matters is to arrive and finish at the calendar start / finish times, leave your calendar card with the organiser and then complete the overall ride within the time limit.

(some riders will finish the whole ride with the finish of the calendar ride if they have ridden the extension before the event; this is perfectly acceptable provided this was the original plan at entry of the ECE; or vice versa)

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Virtual Alps
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2009, 09:59:44 am »
I expect they'll get their own page soon, but in the meantime an easy way to find them is just to type 'extend' into the search box in the Perms sidebar.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2009, 10:52:20 pm »
OK, just so we're clear:

(This from the AUK website)
 600  0     Extended Calendar Event - Randonnee + 600km Martin Malins           
 500  0     Extended Calendar Event - Randonnee + 500km Martin Malins           
 400  0     Extended Calendar Event 100km + 400km    Martin Malins           
 400  0     Extended Calendar Event - Randonnee + 400km Martin Malins           
 300  0     Extended Calendar Event 100km + 300km    Martin Malins           
 300  0     Extended Calendar Event - Randonnee + 300km Martin Malins           
 200  0     Extended Calendar Event 100km + 200km    Martin Malins           
 200  0     Extended Calendar Event - Randonnee + 200km Martin Malins           
 100  0     Extended calendar Event 100km + 100km    Martin Malins           
 100  0     Extended Calendar Event - Randonnee + 100km Martin Malins     

If I'm riding a 100km to a Calendar 100, I want the forth option from the bottom - the "Extended Calendar Event 100km + 200km" to total 200, or the "Extended calendar Event 100km + 100km" to total 200 (though it says 100 on the left)?

Is it just me and the wine, or is that list worded to be juuust slightly not obvious what I need?

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2009, 11:14:18 pm »
Chris; sorry John's only just put all those up on the website so I'm not sure, I assume each one gets a set number of extra points.

edit; just reading an email from John and Pete; the 100+100 is an error; you need to use the 100+200  :)

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2009, 11:23:49 pm »
edit; just reading an email from John and Pete; the 100+100 is an error; you need to use the 100+200  :)

Awesome - thanks Martin.

How about it's worded: "Extra 100=200" rather than "100+200=200" ?

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2009, 11:37:42 pm »
edit; just reading an email from John and Pete; the 100+100 is an error; you need to use the 100+200  :)

Awesome - thanks Martin.

How about it's worded: "Extra 100=200" rather than "100+200=200" ?

I'll check with John it's all early days; I would have thought each add on was worth the number of points it added to the ride but presumably 1 point is not an option  ???  the idea was that calendar points are not added to the ECE as they stand alone.

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2009, 11:38:48 pm »
Like you say - teething troubles; this is the Way Forward - no doubt about it.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2009, 03:14:53 am »
Apologies if this has already been covered but how will the ECE perm be recorded on the website?

1) Calendar ride shows extra points (i.e., a 200km BR has 3 points attached rather than 2) and the ECE is not listed.
2) The points are split pro-rata between the calendar ride and the ECE perm (and does this mean that rider  completed two rides?).
3) All the points are credited to the ECE perm but the rider is credited with the calendar ride which shows 0 points (ditto 'two rides' question).
4) All the points are credited to the ECE perm and the rider is not credited with the calendar event (which rather defeats the purpose of the exercise ISTM).

My preference would be #1. HTH...

Weirdy Biker

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2009, 07:56:26 am »
I believe (2).

My take on these is that the permanent tops up the calendar points.

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2009, 08:11:28 pm »
no and no ; extra points are credited to the ECE only for the extra distance (with the exception of the 100+100 where there would normally be no points for the calendar ride)

fret not, John Ward has it all in hand; just enter what you want to do and it will in come out in the wash  :) and if it doesn't we may just go for a generic ECE entry and work out the points on spec.

yes the rider does complete two rides, but they are separately entered paid for and validated; and also not simultaneous (even if in practice one is sandwiched by the other)

dasmoth

  • Techno-optimist
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2009, 08:37:23 pm »
If one was to ride a 200K event plus a 200K extension, would that count as two events for award purposes?  For instance, if one were trying to keep a double-RRTY going?
Half term's when the traffic becomes mysteriously less bad for a week.

mikewigley

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2009, 09:46:20 pm »
If one was to ride a 200K event plus a 200K extension, would that count as two events for award purposes?  For instance, if one were trying to keep a double-RRTY going?


That's an excellent question.  As the RRTY adjudicator I think I would regard it as 1 event.  But it depends how they are to be listed on the results website.  If they are listed as separate rides I'm not sure how I would know they were one ride.  I don't really see a 100 before and another 100 after a Calendar events as making up a 200

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2009, 09:55:23 pm »
I would say one event too Mike;

One of the main purposes of the ECE is to enable a calendar event to be extended without the calendar event disappearing; the ECE only gets validated if the calendar is completed; so cannot be considered as a separate event.

I'm not entirely sure how they will be recorded in the website, that's down to whatever's easiest for Pete Coates (btw does he frequent This Parish?). I think they will appear as separate perms at the bottom of the results sheet for each rider, should be fairly easy to work out for RRTY as long as they are dated.

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2009, 09:57:10 pm »
A real example:I January I will want to ride 60km to the start of Goodbye Yorkshire Xmas Pud which is a 100km ride, then 60km back home. I am assuming I will

enter the Goodbye Xmas Pud
enter the ECE 100+ 200 with MM

ride to the event getting a receipt as I start,
ride the calendar event and return my card
ride home getting a receipt at the last garage.

Do I have to tell MM what my calendar event is ? Do I get another card for the perm part ? Do I need to get it stamped at the start and finish of the calendar event ?

apologies if all this is written down somewhere, where ?


Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2009, 10:00:04 pm »
A real example:I January I will want to ride 60km to the start of Goodbye Yorkshire Xmas Pud which is a 100km ride, then 60km back home. I am assuming I will

1. enter the Goodbye Xmas Pud
2. enter the ECE 100+ 200 with MM

3. ride to the event getting a receipt as I start,
4. ride the calendar event and return my card
5. ride home getting a receipt at the last garage.

6. Do I have to tell MM what my calendar event is ? Do I get another card for the perm part ?
7. Do I need to get it stamped at the start and finish of the calendar event ?

8. apologies if all this is written down somewhere, where ?

1-7 Yes except for no 3 just a signature from someone at the start will do; picking up the card is proof you have started only I will never see that card so it just makes it easier to get all the proof on the ECE card.
8. the current Arrivee  :)

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2009, 10:08:39 pm »
Didn't see it, sorry, it's well hidden. Not even listed in the contents. I rarely read Arrivee anyway not least official bits. Should have it's own page and be on line for ever since pretty soon Arrivee is going to be next weeks chip wrappers.

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2009, 10:11:43 pm »
it's in John Ward's AGM report.

I can put a link to it on my club's website from the perms page on the website.

or you can read the top of this thread  ;)