Author Topic: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?  (Read 59392 times)

frankly frankie

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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2009, 10:40:30 pm »
The devil is in the detail, that's for sure - but really there's 11 months to sort it out now, and in the meantime at least these things are there to be ridden, all credit to Martin.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2009, 08:59:39 pm »
I've updated the perm pages with details of each event on what calendar / extra distance it entails, if anyone wishes to do another permutation please let me know.

NB to clairify a couple of PM's / emails I have had, all points from the ECE part of the ride will count as perm points and all from the calendar will count as calendar

I may put a web link from each to this thread too...

mattc

  • "Hannibal"
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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2009, 09:02:01 am »
or you can read the top of this thread  ;)
Yup, that's a good place.

[ The board FAQ takes me to the wrong place i.e. the most recent post in the thread, but apart from that it could not be much easier to find :) ]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

frankly frankie

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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2009, 09:06:19 am »
'Extensions' are now linked in the Permanents sidebar, also a PDF of the Arrivee article.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2009, 07:58:41 pm »
'Extensions' are now linked in the Permanents sidebar, also a PDF of the Arrivee article.
good stuff  :thumbsup:

can my email be spam-bombed from a pdf?

TOBY

  • hello
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2009, 10:58:02 pm »
sorry if this has already been covered or I'm missing something(I did re-scan the thread).

My query is:

You are on 1 ride with 2 parts validated independently of each other, but ONE ride to complete.

The add-on part is validated when the calendar part of the ride has been validated.

If I enter say the BCM600+ECE100, ride the BCM then decide to sack off the ECE part of the ride, would/should the BCM then be invalidated removed when I don't submit my ECE brevet?


AIUI by failing to ride the ECE section I have not completed my ride - only a section, so should not be awarded the brevet, but my calendar section would have been validated, if you see what I mean  :-\

frankly frankie

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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2009, 11:15:33 pm »
I've removed the email and phone number from the pdf
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2009, 07:11:25 pm »
If I enter say the BCM600+ECE100, ride the BCM then decide to sack off the ECE part of the ride, would/should the BCM then be invalidated removed when I don't submit my ECE brevet?

I believe this was suggested at the comittee stage and fortunately discounted, apart from being jolly harsh and also quite likely to put people off ECEs it would be impossible to police, the calendar card goes off for validation anyway. DIY + Cal events are also possible to do this on. NB John Ward does not wish to validate any DIY +Cals this year although I assume there are some ones already entered in the pipeline; all new entries must be ECE. FWIW I have had 7 entries for 2010 so far of which 2 are ones I was going to DIY + cal myself.

ECEs and calendar events are separate rides ridden consecutively which when combined create a combined distance not event. That's my understanding of it and it is within the rules. You are quite entitled to go and debate them at the AGM though I believe they are on the agenda.

mattc

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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2009, 07:20:09 pm »
I can see pros/cons to that approach. One consequence may be that
riding HOME FROM a cal event will become much more appealing than
riding FROM HOME TO the event.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Manotea

  • Just 1 sob, Vassily
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2009, 08:21:10 pm »
I can see pros/cons to that approach. One consequence may be that
riding HOME FROM a cal event will become much more appealing than
riding FROM HOME TO the event.

Well that's the slackers approach! Enter an ECE on the grounds you MAY want to ride home.

Actually I've always found riding home the hard bit, having to wander out into the tired cold dark wet night (cue violins) whilst all your mates are sitting around chatting and generally taking it easy.

More likely you'll be riding THERE or riding THERE and BACK. Riding THERE means when the calendar ride is done youre signed off for the day and if you rode there and signed up to ride back theres no way you'll not. SMMV!

mattc

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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2009, 08:58:25 am »
Actually I've always found riding home the hard bit,
Very true.
Quote
More likely you'll be riding THERE or riding THERE and BACK. Riding THERE means when the calendar ride is done youre signed off for the day and if you rode there and signed up to ride back theres no way you'll not. SMMV!
Actually, reading between the lines, it sounds like a THERE_and_BACK ride would also be eligible for the Slacker's Bailout. Martin?

[I suppose the advantage of CAL+RIDE_HOME would be avoiding a crazy early start, in most cases anyway ...]

p.s. SMMV ?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Manotea

  • Just 1 sob, Vassily
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2009, 04:49:29 pm »
I can see pros/cons to that approach. One consequence may be that
riding HOME FROM a cal event will become much more appealing than
riding FROM HOME TO the event.

Well that's the slackers approach! Enter an ECE on the grounds you MAY want to ride home.

Actually I've always found riding home the hard bit, having to wander out into the tired cold dark wet night (cue violins) whilst all your mates are sitting around chatting and generally taking it easy.

More likely you'll be riding THERE or riding THERE and BACK. Riding THERE means when the calendar ride is done youre signed off for the day and if you rode there and signed up to ride back theres no way you'll not.

Just realised that I was quoting old rules which didnt really allow for a bailout option , well not morally...  
SMMV!

Slackers Mileage May Vary!

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2009, 10:57:03 pm »
Actually, reading between the lines, it sounds like a THERE_and_BACK ride would also be eligible for the Slacker's Bailout. Martin?

like all AUK events; you must declare your intentions on the entry before you ride and stick to them. I had originally thought the ECE would just be a means of riding from home (or at least a distance you would rather not drive) and returning; but Greenbank pointed out that he often rode all the way to an event rode the event and got the train home; all very noble and of course entirely within the rules so the ECE portion can be before after or both as long as the combined distance yada yada.

I expect someone one day will drive even further away from the calendar start than their house so that they can do a longer ECE to make up the distance...

TOBY

  • hello
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2009, 10:38:09 am »
like all AUK events; you must declare your intentions on the entry before you ride and stick to them.

This was my understanding that made me query the validation of the calendar part when the ECE was not completed, you wouldn't have stuck to your declared intentions.

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2009, 10:43:27 am »
like all AUK events; you must declare your intentions on the entry before you ride and stick to them.

This was my understanding that made me query the validation of the calendar part when the ECE was not completed, you wouldn't have stuck to your declared intentions.


You've entered both though. I never liked the DIY+Cal for that reason.

TOBY

  • hello
Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2009, 12:45:13 pm »
like all AUK events; you must declare your intentions on the entry before you ride and stick to them.

This was my understanding that made me query the validation of the calendar part when the ECE was not completed, you wouldn't have stuck to your declared intentions.


You've entered both though. I never liked the DIY+Cal for that reason.

Yeah but when you buy a Shandy you can't just drink the Beer bit.

Weirdy Biker

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2009, 01:31:47 pm »
What if you completed a 200km extension cycling to the event but DNS'd the calendar event.  Would you get 2 points for this?  I would be surprised if this is the case.

If you don't get the points, then where is the logic in giving 2 point if you swap the extension and calendar event in the above?

Cyklisten

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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2009, 02:55:29 pm »

my ten penn'orth

It seems to me that the extensions are simply that and as such are secondary to the calendar event and (IMHO) a great idea. I could add 120k to any ride out of Hailsham for example by riding to and from home thus avoiding car usage.

If you complete the calendar ride regardless of completing the extension(s) the calendar ride stands.
How you arrived and left the start/finish would be irrelevant to the calendar organiser.

If you are riding to the start (a la Greenbank) then being there on time would require completion of the extension anyway.

If you are splitting the extension before and after then both parts should be 'tied' i.e both completed. This would avoid lame claims i.e. 100 + Cal200 + 100 - DNF homeward 100 and claiming 300. This should be covered by declared intent anyway.

Extensions should depend on completion of the calendar event regardless of whether they would attract points as a standalone by virtue of the fact they are 'extensions', regardless of distance.

'nuff said!

 

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SFACC Audax Champion 2010

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2009, 09:59:17 pm »
thanks for the replies;

extensions are just that; a means of creating an extra distance that will take advantage of a nearby calendar event; I've done the advantages of this to death but here they are again;

1. You don't end up driving miles (as most winter 200s are on Sunday and inconvenient for trains) to keep your RRTY and points up
2. The organiser doesn't suddenly have riders disappear off his  / her results sheet (which may already be depleted) due to riders doing a DIY out of it.
3. You don't sacrifice AAA's from a hilly ride by extending it
4. You don't sacrifice calendar points to the 50% rule

the ECE system has been approved and devised with the input of many of the AUK committee and also people here and elsewhere; and I hope you enjoy the new facility;

if you don't there is an AGM next week where you can go and have the rules changed  :) (and if you do; please find a secret roving inspector to find out if every rider on a calendar event has also entered an ECE and make sure they go back out and ride home)

What if you completed a 200km extension cycling to the event but DNS'd the calendar event.  

You'd have to do a DIY for the 200 beforehand and not incorporate the cal event. Sorry; someone has to administer all this stuff and we can't allow for every single possibility.

You've entered both though. I never liked the DIY+Cal for that reason.

but how would anybody know you had entered the DIY bit if you just handed in your card at the end of the calendar event? you've also entered 2 evnts for that.

on a tangent; on one extremely hilly ride the organiser gave riders the option of cutting short and getting validated for the shorter distance event (still worth a shed load of AAA's) how does that work with "declaring your intentions"?

Cyklisten

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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2009, 12:25:43 am »

on a tangent; on one extremely hilly ride the organiser gave riders the option of cutting short and getting validated for the shorter distance event (still worth a shed load of AAA's) how does that work with "declaring your intentions"?


If the option was given before the ride or even at the start it would still be a declared intent.
Ti små cyklister tog ud på cykeltur ...

SFACC Audax Champion 2010

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2009, 10:39:32 am »


You've entered both though. I never liked the DIY+Cal for that reason.

but how would anybody know you had entered the DIY bit if you just handed in your card at the end of the calendar event? you've also entered 2 evnts for that.


No one else would know. That's why I never liked them and never did any. In my mind it goes against "The Unwritten Rule".

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2009, 10:48:01 am »
No one else would know. That's why I never liked them and never did any. In my mind it goes against "The Unwritten Rule".

Not quite. You should ask the organiser of the calendar event for permission to use it as part of a DIY and say that you'll be DNFing his ride and taking the signed Brevet card away. So he/she will be aware of your plans.

He/she has to sign the calendar event Brevet card to say it's been completed (as it's part of the proof of passage). He/she could refuse to sign it, or refuse to submit it if you hadn't said you'd changed your mind before starting the calendar event.

(i.e. get up at 3am look outside, bin idea of DIY ride to start of calendar event and take the car instead, tell the organiser "not doing the DIY any more, just doing your calendar ride" and everything continues as normal. You've changed your mind but before the ride has started, so that's fine.)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2009, 09:09:19 pm »
hope I haven't opened up a can of worms here but the whole idea of ECE's is to encourage riders to extend local rides not to turn a calendar event into an ordeal;

I've only done the two myself and they were definitely much nicer than a perm in that I did the middle bit in company and also enjoyed proper calendar event catering, in fact I've signed up for the same two as ECE's this year.

Please note that the old fashioned DIY+Cals are no longer encouraged (although I presume any already entered ones will be honoured) and you should enter extensions through me and the calendar event normally.

Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2009, 09:12:27 pm »
Martin - I completely buy into what you are doing.

For a branch of cycling that is supposed to be non-competitive, audaxers sure can get themselves tied in knots over the semantics of something so simple...  ::-)

frankly frankie

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Re: Calendar “add-on” rides; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2009, 01:11:15 pm »
Show a cyclist a rule and he will go "hmm - I wonder how far this bends?".
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."