The Primary Position.

[Zoidburg]

It works.

Or in theory.

I adopt it, drivers try to drive around me at the junctions, force me off the road, run me into the kerb, cut me up by forcing their way in from the left turning lane at roundabouts, and so on and so on and so on.

Cyclecraft - we know about it, most drivers though think the default position for a cyclist however should be in the gutter at all times. I have actually had two in as many days say so. They just don't seem to understand that if I am going right then I am not going to be in the left hand lane at a junction or roundabout.

A major rethink is needed, following cyclecraft is getting me into dangerous and stupid confrontations because drivers do not think - they just assume that they have right of way in every single situation.

Cyclecraft is failing me, it's nice in theory to be "in the right" but sadly that will not make me any less dead when some tool continues onwards at a junction and runs me over.

I am getting very jaded and pissed off to be honest.

[David Martin]

The primary position is a starting point for negotiation over the use of the road. All sharing of commons is by negotiation.

..d

[Speshact]

I think a tv advertising campaign directed at cyclists just before Clarkson saying:
'A car door width and a little bit more' is the right to cycle from a car etc... and showing National Standard / Bikeability cycling technique would be great.
It would educate cyclists, but more importantly it would educate Motons in where cyclists are right to be in the eyes of the authorities/experts.

[Zoidburg]

I think a tv advertising campaign directed at cyclists just before Clarkson saying:
'A car door width and a little bit more' is the right to cycle from a car etc... and showing National Standard / Bikeability cycling technique would be great.
It would educate cyclists, but more importantly it would educate Motons in where cyclists are right to be in the eyes of the authorities/experts.

This is my concern exactly.

It's like pacifism, nice in theory but not actually a very usefull survival tactic.

[Snugsy]

It works.

Or in theory.

It works OK for me, most of the time. It's important to use Primary when you're travelling at a similar speed to the rest of the traffic, which is the case most of the time in urban traffic, but be ready to move over if you have to slow e.g for a hill or wind. I feel decidedly less safe on the road at less than about 15mph, and far safer at 20-25mph.

[Zoidburg]

It works.

Or in theory.

It works OK for me, most of the time. It's important to use Primary when you're travelling at a similar speed to the rest of the traffic, which is the case most of the time in urban traffic, but be ready to move over if you have to slow e.g for a hill or wind. I feel decidedly less safe on the road at less than about 15mph, and far safer at 20-25mph.

I am getting the situation at junctions and traffic is at a crawl, matching speed is not the issue, it is drivers who assume that all costs that they simply must pass a cyclist, even if that means going onto the wrong side of the road and cutting in on me at at 45 degrees - right at the stop line, even if they can not go any further. They are putting my life at risk to get them the grand total of one cars distance further on, sometimes just feet.

The only thing I have found that has made any driver back off is a kick aimed at front light or wing.

Not something I am keen on

[Tom B]

I've been knocked off my bike by a car once. I pulling away at a traffic lights and driver 'had to swerve to avoid a van' (to his right). I feel sure that if I'd been in primary position, rather than close to the kerb, he wouldn't have done this.

But point taken about R-turn lanes  - there've been lots of times when I'd already moved into the R-turn lane and right-turning cars overtook on the inside and cut me up in their haste to get ahead  

Oooh, Snugsy has just said same

[Gattopardo]

Riding in the primary position, means that people don't force you in to the gutter.  In the gutter is where the debris is and where the pncture fairies live.

[mattc]

It works.

Or in theory.

I adopt it, drivers try to drive around me at the junctions,
...
 and so on and so on and so on.

...

I am getting very jaded and pissed off to be honest.

Many drivers are twunts.

You don't say what happens when you gutter-hug. It's definitely worse. Try turning right at a roundabout by hugging the gutter - multiple oppos for splatting.

Broadly speaking, the Cyclecraft way is best. (except possibly on motorways).

[SteveC]

A long time ago...

before I'd heard of cyclecraft... (probably before it was written)

I came to the conclusion that most drivers assumed cyclists were

a)  Two dimensional and
b) stationary

and therefore used to ignore the fact they were on the road at all.

Moving out into the middle of the lane (or roughly what we now call 'primary') and keeping up with the traffic (which takes some doing on a sit up and beg 3-speed Rudge you were given second hand when you were about 10) seemed to be the obvious tactic.  So I tried it and it works. 

You do need to be so 'in the way' that any interaction has to be deliberate.  And you do have to realise that the driver is trying to get somewhere as well, so as David Martin says above, it's a position for negotiation.

The only time I've been knocked off was a SMIDSY many years ago, and, having started driving since, I don't really blame the driver for that particular incident.

Steve

[Wendy]

If Cyclecraft is failing you, then your current approach to riding is most likely an incorrect interpretation of cyclecraft.  It works extremely well, but it's not a bloody minded sit in the middle of the road no matter what approach.

I'll leaven this by saying that I think you're probably a very good cyclist from what I've read of your posts, and that I see lots of experienced cyclists misinterpreting Cyclecraft and then dismissing it as a result.  I would suspect that your normal and safe riding is already much more "Cyclecraft" than you probably realise.

[Biggsy]

A major rethink is needed, following cyclecraft is getting me into dangerous and stupid confrontations because drivers do not think - they just assume that they have right of way in every single situation.

You'll get in to an even more dangerous situation if you don't use the Primary position at danger zones, as you know.  Maybe you're using it too often when it isn't really needed (for safety), though.  I very rarely get motorists complaining about me using it.

Cyclecraft may call it the Primary or default position, but doesn't actually advise you to use it most of the time, only when there is some particular reason to.

[woollypigs]

It works for me.

Though just back from Denmark and where there is no bike lane, they ride right in the gutter. And if you try to take the lane you get beeped, go figure.

[FatBloke]

I'm a big fan of the using the primary position where necessary and haven't had any major problems. I am a very assertive rider and will use as much road as I think I need to increase my safety. Frankly, if I cause a moton to slow down for a few seconds that's probably not a bad thing. If they think differently I'm more than happy to stop and discuss. 

[clarion]

Works for me.  Puts me where motorists are expecting to see someone, not at the edge.  I can close gaps where I need to, and give space if appropriate/forced.  If I ride in the gutter, Im not treated as part of the traffic, and get squeezed.

[nuttycyclist]

It works.

Or in theory.

It works OK for me, most of the time. It's important to use Primary when you're travelling at a similar speed to the rest of the traffic, which is the case most of the time in urban traffic, but be ready to move over if you have to slow e.g for a hill or wind. I feel decidedly less safe on the road at less than about 15mph, and far safer at 20-25mph.

I am getting the situation at junctions and traffic is at a crawl, matching speed is not the issue, it is drivers who assume that all costs that they simply must pass a cyclist, even if that means going onto the wrong side of the road and cutting in on me at at 45 degrees - right at the stop line, even if they can not go any further. They are putting my life at risk to get them the grand total of one cars distance further on, sometimes just feet.

The only thing I have found that has made any driver back off is a kick aimed at front light or wing.

Not something I am keen on

Rather than lash out because you've let yourself get forced into that position, plan ahead.

I have a similar trying to push past on the approach to a queue.  I use three options.

1) If there's room to undertake the stopped car then either move to the front of the queue or cut back out.  Stay wide, force the overtaking car to come to a halt straddling the centre line, then cycle away  

2) As option 1, but the driver spots the fact they can't pass and pulls back in behind me.  At that point, as they come to a halt, I start the filter in an obvious manner that the queue is holding them up, not me.

3) Force the overtake, but as they pass slam on the anchors, pull out behind them and immediately overtake them and the whole queue.


My preferred option, used a couple of times a week, is number 3.



I don't differentiate between primary or secondary position btw, I just ride my bike.  When I read cyclecraft it seemed to say "carry on riding as you are" so I chucked it in a cupboard.

[simonp]

When I read cyclecraft it seemed to say "carry on riding as you are"

+1.  It largely codified what I'd been doing for 10 years already.  However I do think it provided a lot more detail and perhaps encouraged me to use primary a bit more.

Zoiders, I'm sorry you're finding it hard.  Standing up to bullying behaviour is not easy, and the motorists have a significant weapon at their disposal.

I regularly see gutter cyclists around Cambridge having motorists squeeze past them, all that stuff happens to gutter cyclists too.  I think it's a fallacy to believe switching to that kind of riding style will make things get better.  It'll make things considerably worse in many situations.

[Zoidburg]

I wasn't looking for a critique or advice on the subject of cyclecraft, I like to keep a flexable mental attitude to safe road use - if I have to I will "cheat" like nutty describes. The issue is that CC is touted by some as a perfect system, it falls down because it assumes that drivers play by the rules as well. They do not. Maybe it is time to introduce the CC chaps to real world cycling? 
 

[Jacomus]

Throwing in my 2cents here...

I used to be a strict primary position, cyclecraft kinda guy. It didn't work out too well for me, in fact, I ended up taking 2+ months off cycling because I was getting so stressed.

Now I adopt a totally different approach.

Instead of worrying about what cars are going to do around me, I made my primary concern "enjoying the ride". I, you, we, already know how to deal with motons - otherwise we wouldn't be riding. Since making the mental leap from "I can't credit the stupidity! The cu*t just passed me 10m before a red traffic light! What did that going them?" and equating that with "Meh, so they go past, what's it going to cost me?" I am a hell of a lot happier.

That's not to say I don't assert my right to the road, but I do it in a different way. A calmer, more hippie way. When I need space I take it, when I don't, I don't make a fuss about asserting my position, and ride kinda closeish to the left.

Probably what has made the biggest difference to me is taking more time at junctions. Sitting 2-4 cars back in the queue, and not using my ability to filter at all opportunities.

[gordon taylor]

Though just back from Denmark and where there is no bike lane, they ride right in the gutter. And if you try to take the lane you get beeped, go figure.

Whilst the drivers are far more patient on the continent towards cyclists, they certainly pass much, much closer once they decide to overtake. In Holland they just skim past.

Stick at it, Mr Z. I ride like JcG now and (usually) just ride my daily A34 roundabouts in the proper lane. Anything closer than two feet gets a wry smile, anything closer than one foot gets a cowboy YEEEHAH!

Mind you (OT slightly) it seems to be much harder to maintain space in daylight. My lights and reflectives produce a much wider overtake on the dark winter commutes.

[Wendy]

The issue is that CC is touted by some as a perfect system, it falls down because it assumes that drivers play by the rules as well. They do not. Maybe it is time to introduce the CC chaps to real world cycling? 
 

Not at all, Cyclecraft is *far* from assuming that drivers play by the rules.  This is exactly the sort of thing I meant when I suggested you might be misinterpreting the book.

That's not to say I don't assert my right to the road, but I do it in a different way. A calmer, more hippie way. When I need space I take it, when I don't, I don't make a fuss about asserting my position, and ride kinda closeish to the left.

Probably what has made the biggest difference to me is taking more time at junctions. Sitting 2-4 cars back in the queue, and not using my ability to filter at all opportunities.

These comments from JrG on how he rides now is pretty much pure Cyclecraft, IMO, as well as along the teachings in bikeability.

Cyclecraft isn't strict, nor is it strictly primary, and nor is it about stopping someone overtaking you.  Instead it's about discouraging all but the most stupid overtakes, and leaving you enough room to deal with the few bad ones calmly and coolly.  It's defo not about thinking "you blunt, you overtook me 10m before a queue".  Incorrect assumptions by you guys, sorry. 

[Jaded]

Probably what has made the biggest difference to me is taking more time at junctions. Sitting 2-4 cars back in the queue, and not using my ability to filter at all opportunities.

Oh yes!

If you wish to set out to antagonise a load of drivers in a town, keep on playing leapfrog with them at traffic lights. Overtake followed by filter up the inside. ad infinitum, until you wind them up enough.

Riding in traffic is about taking control and having unspoken negotiations with drivers. Showing that you know what you are doing and you are fully aware of your impact on other road users, and their impact on you.

[Ian H]

Riding in traffic is about taking control and having unspoken negotiations with drivers. Showing that you know what you are doing and you are fully aware of your impact on other road users, and their impact on you.

What? You mean, like, 'give and take'? There's a novel idea!

[simonp]

That's not to say I don't assert my right to the road, but I do it in a different way. A calmer, more hippie way. When I need space I take it, when I don't, I don't make a fuss about asserting my position, and ride kinda closeish to the left.

Probably what has made the biggest difference to me is taking more time at junctions. Sitting 2-4 cars back in the queue, and not using my ability to filter at all opportunities.

Were you making a fuss about asserting your position when you didn't need space?  Which part of Cyclecraft told you to do that?

[Biggsy]

The issue is that CC is touted by some as a perfect system, it falls down because it assumes that drivers play by the rules as well. They do not. Maybe it is time to introduce the CC chaps to real world cycling? 

What system?  Can you give an example of a piece of specific advice in CC that you disagree with?  So far it seems like you are over-generalising it.

When I need space I take it, when I don't, I don't make a fuss about asserting my position, and ride kinda closeish to the left.

Probably what has made the biggest difference to me is taking more time at junctions. Sitting 2-4 cars back in the queue, and not using my ability to filter at all opportunities.

None of that is incompatible with the advice in Cyclecraft.

I think you guys need to get the book out of the cupboard and read it again if you are going to criticise it - or just forget about the book if you are already confident that you're doing the right thing.