Waving to invite traffic behind to overtake

[Jaded]

If I can help a following car overtake me then I will. It is far preferable to having it try to get past in an inappropriate place, or sitting behind me for a long time. Being worried about getting sued if I wave a car into a crash sounds just a bit like banning conkers at school.

[Chris S]

On my own, I'm happy to occupy the primary position until I find a place to pull in and let them pass. This only becomes a pain if the road is busy, which is unusual for minor roads/lanes outside of the South East. In the South East of course, they're all impatient f*ckers who don't wait to be waved by in any case...*

* May contain generalisations.

[Greenbank]

This probably deserves to be in On The Road now, at least that should stop me getting riled by it.

What it does show is that a bunch of brilliantly clever people on here all read the words in the HWC (and Roadcraft and advanced driving literature and training) and still have such different interpretations of it.

If we can't all get it and agree on it, is it any wonder that motons with single digit IQs can't grasp it.

What is it about groups of cyclists that makes drivers want to take unnecessary and unreasonable risks to overtake? 

Not just groups. It's inbuilt moton behaviour to "must overtake cyclist" even if there's standing traffic or a red light 20 yards ahead. Because, once overtaken, the cyclist disappears.

Anyway, enough of this thread for me, I don't see anything new being discussed, just the same old stuff rehashed and the same things that annoy me being dredged up.

[SpaceBadger]

It's still fairly rare to meet a group of more than (say) six fast cyclists riding together.  Probably about as rare as meeting a milk float, traction engine or one or more equestrians.  All of which you would expect to wait behind until an overtake becomes absolutely safe to initiate.

What is it about groups of cyclists that makes drivers want to take unnecessary and unreasonable risks to overtake?  

Even if those drivers are also skilled, regular cyclists?

I've been playing some catch-up on ths thread after a day at work and have just read the (above) post that captured exactly what I was thinking throughout. Well said, Charlotte.

On the subject of singling-out, or not, we don't tend to (our groups are typically 10-20) for the reasons already given. Where we do single-out, it's when we have no alternative but to spend some time on major A roads where the traffic slows for no-one. Thankfully it's never for more than a mile or so, but it's such an unpleasant experience that being further from overtaking cars is comforting (even though the road is much wider). That and the fact that someone usually decides it is so unpleasant that they go to the front, give it some gas and string us all out to get it over with, whether we like it or not.

[GruB]

I do it all the time.  I ride on roads that are basically narrow and empty.  I only do it when I am confident, guaranteed not to be wrong.  I get many toots as thanks and waves also.

Do you drive a police car, GruB?  Did you do your Class I (or whatever they call it these days?)

I'm really quite staunch on this one, I'm afraid.  Yes, if it's safe you can beckon and you'll probably get away with it 99.9% of the time.  But given the minimal benefits that beckoning offers^* and the frankly awful consequences if it goes wrong, it's really much better if you just don't do it. 

That's not to say that as a cyclist you can't directly influence the overtaking behaviour of traffic behind you.  I do it all the time with my road position.  If I want them to stay where they are and not overtake, I occupy enough of the road that they can't reasonably go round me.  Once I'm satisfied that overtaking is safe once again, I make a deliberate and obvious move to the secondary position.

But it's always the decision of the overtaking vehicle as to whether or not their action is safe.



^*_{Incidentally, when it comes to directing the traffic in the event of an emergency, I'd say that the risk-benefit equation changes and using hand signals to influence the actions of other road users becomes acceptable because of the positive effect on the speed of the blue light vehicle.  Besides, you're stopping road users from proceeding, not beckoning them on.  Much harder to place them in danger by requesting that they stop.}

I have my standard driving permit, yes.  That means I can use blues and twos and do not need to adhere to any speed limit if the conditions are suitable and there is no immediate danger to any other road user.

There is a big difference to motioning from inside a box and from doing so whilst on a cycle.  I liken a cycle more to pedestrian hand signalling.  I do that a lot too ( or used to before I started flying a desk ).  I do not motion any one whilst in a car, other than the prat I am trying to pull over that is ignoring my flashing lights, indicators or siren.

[GruB]

Never.  There's always the chance I've failed to see something, or misjudged it, or that something is just around the next corner and - wait for it - speeding.

The only time I've been hit by a car was when somebody else had beckoned it through to say it was safe.  Neither the beckoner nor the driver had seen me (actually, I don't think either of them were looking) and however much it's their responsibility to check, most drivers will assume that a beckoner has done the thinking for them and just full steam ahead.  Or they'll do a "quick check" which is classic "look but fail to see" territory.

If I'm on a bike and beckon someone through, and for whatever reason something suddenly appears in the oncoming lane, where do you think they're going?  To avoid a head on collision they'll instinctively head back to the left hand side of the road - straight into me.  

Not a chance.  If it's safe they'll be able to see it's safe and make the decision themselves.

Incidentally, it also pisses me off when people beckon me to go ahead when I'm driving.  Following a club ride out of Machynlleth (or however you spell it) and heading up the giant, twisty hill, I was quite happy to sit at a respectable distance behind them and chug up slowly, but their lead rider was beckoning like a mad thing despite the fact that had I started an overtake, I'd have got to the next blind bend approximately halfway through overtaking the group.  

Liz, if there is a corner or a hump in the road then of course you should not motion.  I would not do so in those types of conditions as it is not safe to do so. 

[Julian]

Never.  There's always the chance I've failed to see something, or misjudged it, or that something is just around the next corner and - wait for it - speeding.

The only time I've been hit by a car was when somebody else had beckoned it through to say it was safe.  Neither the beckoner nor the driver had seen me (actually, I don't think either of them were looking) and however much it's their responsibility to check, most drivers will assume that a beckoner has done the thinking for them and just full steam ahead.  Or they'll do a "quick check" which is classic "look but fail to see" territory.

If I'm on a bike and beckon someone through, and for whatever reason something suddenly appears in the oncoming lane, where do you think they're going?  To avoid a head on collision they'll instinctively head back to the left hand side of the road - straight into me. 

Not a chance.  If it's safe they'll be able to see it's safe and make the decision themselves.

Incidentally, it also pisses me off when people beckon me to go ahead when I'm driving.  Following a club ride out of Machynlleth (or however you spell it) and heading up the giant, twisty hill, I was quite happy to sit at a respectable distance behind them and chug up slowly, but their lead rider was beckoning like a mad thing despite the fact that had I started an overtake, I'd have got to the next blind bend approximately halfway through overtaking the group. 

Liz, if there is a corner or a hump in the road then of course you should not motion.  I would not do so in those types of conditions as it is not safe to do so. 

But it's something I see people do - when I'm riding with them or when I'm driving behind them - all the time.  Approaching blind bends, approaching humps, it doesn't seem to matter - and another driver would probably go for it if motioned to do so.

[GruB]

Fair enough.  They are stupid people then.  I was referring to my behaviour when I was saying I would not consider those examples as a safe time to motion anyone through.

[Julian]

I wasn't suggesting you'd be one of the stupid ones (nor anybody else here).  I probably only notice the stupid ones and don't notice the times when it's perfectly safe and someone motions.    A bit like motorists only noticing cyclists when they're RLJing and mowing down pensioners. 

[GruB]

 

[toekneep]

I have done it and probably will again but I am extremely cautious. Having experienced  a driver responding far too late to my indication and start to overtake when there were cars coming the other way and clearly visible to her.

I now also ensure that if a driver responds in an unpredictable way there has to be room for me to get off the road completely otherwise I won't do it.

This thread will make me even more cautious, which is a good thing.

[citoyen]

A bit like motorists only noticing cyclists when they're RLJing and mowing down pensioners. 

Or when they're riding in the dark with no lights.

d.

[Julian]

A bit like motorists only noticing cyclists when they're RLJing and mowing down pensioners. 

Or when they're riding in the dark with no lights.

d.

I keep seeing these invisible cyclists, doctor.

[Wendy]

I keep seeing these invisible cyclists, doctor.

+1

[Wendy]

I tried the not wave cars on approach last night, and whilst it works reasonably well when there are few no-overtake-and-need-to-take lane places, I was less impressed on Bromley Hill where there are an endless line of pinch points.

See here:
Google Maps

This is relatively slow as it's uphill, and only 1-3 cars can ever pass between any two of the pinch points.  There's lots of negotiation out to take the lane, and back left again between pinch points.

[Euan Uzami]

I never do this, purely on anecdotal evidence: once when driving a van, I was behind some cyclists and i was following them for a bit because i was deliberately not overtaking until i could give them the room i felt I should give them - but they obviously did not like the sound of the van's fairly noisy diesel engine behind them so waved me on to overtake - it distinctly WASN'T safe to do so.
It's the overtakER's responsibility to overtake safely, it's not the overtakEE's responsibility to BE overtaken.
In my view that's not just a legal standpoint, but a common sense one - so to say beckoning someone to overtake is ok on the grounds that it's still their legal obligation to make sure it's safe, is nonsensical - because they might be less inclined to consider this than to snap up the opportunity to 'get past'.

[Regulator]

I never do this, purely on anecdotal evidence: once when driving a van, I was behind some cyclists and i was following them for a bit because i was deliberately not overtaking until i could give them the room i felt I should give them - but they obviously did not like the sound of the van's fairly noisy diesel engine behind them so waved me on to overtake - it distinctly WASN'T safe to do so.
It's the overtakER's responsibility to overtake safely, it's not the overtakEE's responsibility to BE overtaken.
In my view that's not just a legal standpoint, but a common sense one - so to say beckoning someone to overtake is ok on the grounds that it's still their legal obligation to make sure it's safe, is nonsensical - because they might be less inclined to consider this than to snap up the opportunity to 'get past'.

No it's not.  It is always the driver's responsibility to ensure that the way is safe to proceed.  They can ignore you if they wish.

[SteveC]

I do wave people on.  Round here I know the roads as a car driver as well as a cyclist and there are precious few opportunities to overtake a bike between here and work. Every little helps.

MrsC bought me one of those old Highway Code books for Christmas.  The waving on signal was in there, defined as 'I am prepared to be overtaken', which would be a much better way of thinking about it.

Steve

[MikeFromLFE]

Probably the only time I do this is when I've got an articulated lorry or bus, or some such labouring behind me *and* there is a place where I can safely pull slightly off the main carriageway - a layby, or simillar, or where I can safely hug the verge to let them past - this is on the basis that I'd rather see the bu**er than listen to it revving behind me.

[Bledlow]

I wave vehicles on, but with care. Only when I can see that it is safe, & I know they can't, or occasionally when I sense they're dithering because they're not sure of my reaction.

I wave people back at least as often. I've been overtaken in unsafe places many times, & I find that a signal when I hear them starting to rev sometimes works.

If I wave someone on & they don't respond in a timely fashion, I wave them back. "It was safe, now it isn't".

But mostly, I don't signal at all.

What really irritates me is when a car overtakes immediately after a passing place on a narrow lane. That happens a lot. Sometimes, I've seen a passing place ahead,  looked over my shoulder, slowed down as I pull over into it - no reaction, run out of space, so I put my head & foot down, only to hear the engine revs go up. Doh!

[andygates]

There's lots of little narrow stuff in Devon where passing is restricted.  I'm a polite boy, and will dip in and wave on when appropriate, but only when solo.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I would and have waved people by, or rather indicated that I'm pulling in to a passing place on single-track roads - it's more a signal of my intent than an indication to overtake, albeit my intention is conditioned by their presence. I wouldn't signal anyone to overtake in other circumstances, as they can probably judge the overtaking abilities and desires of themselves and their vehicle at least as well as I can.

[Freddie Danglenuts]

I will wave a following HGV on sometimes. 
When, of course depends on the circumstances, but I've found that on narrow (ish) roads a glance back and a wave indicates to the HGV driver that firstly, (you are aware of the fact that he is there) and secondly (that you are confident of your own abilityand not wobble under his wheels) as he overtakes.
Generally I think that it is appreciated.