Author Topic: Vino back to Astana  (Read 5561 times)

rdaviesb

Vino back to Astana
« on: July 02, 2009, 06:55:58 pm »
Someone please stop this travesty. If the Khazaks hold Bruyneel to ransom let's just hope he tells them to get stuffed.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 07:26:42 pm »
I don't like the sound of this news. 

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 07:40:03 pm »
Me neither.

I also hope Bruneel tells him to get stuffed, Lance buys the team, moves it to another country and changes the kit. Team Livestrong?

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2009, 08:11:53 pm »
Me neither.

I also hope Bruneel tells him to get stuffed, Lance buys the team, moves it to another country and changes the kit. Team Livestrong?

Team Trek when the Astana contract ends.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2009, 09:04:02 pm »
Someone please stop this travesty. If the Khazaks hold Bruyneel to ransom let's just hope he tells them to get stuffed.

Why?

Why is he any worse than David millar?

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2009, 09:10:13 pm »
Because he comes from a former Eastern block country, has never, to the best of my knowledge shown any remorse or contrition for his act.  I appreciate it is widespread but when you get caught you have to jump through the right hoops, make the right noises

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2009, 09:32:05 pm »
Because he comes from a former Eastern block country


Could you expand this bit please?
[Quote/]Adrian, you're living proof that bandwidth is far too cheap.[/Quote]

rdaviesb

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2009, 09:35:30 pm »
1. Vino was caught in 2007, when the anti doping campaigns had really been up and running for some time. He knew all about the testing that he would be subject to, and still chose to dope.
2. Vino was blood doping, a form of cheating which is designed to be considerably harder to detect than the additional of other substances to your body. He was trying to evade controls.
3. Millar admitted his offences before he was caught (but he could hardly do anything else).
4. Vino has never repented.
5. Millar is voiciferously anti doping. Vino has never been, and today, is not.

Bruyneel only took over Astana when a term was inserted into his contract that he would not have to take back Vino and Kashekin. Vino seems to think that he can walk back into the team, and the Khazak federation should be distancing themselves from this viewpoint at a right rate of knots. I hope they have the honour to do so.

On a personal note, Vino tarnishes my memories of the 2007 TdF. I watched the Prologue hanging off the fountain at the top of the Mall, and it was the best days cycling I have ever seen. The fact that I know that Vino was cheating the crowd disgusts me, and try as I might, that thought still hangs around my head and mars the fantastic memory of Cancellara steaming round that final bend to victory (he really was moving considerably faster than anyone else!). The cheer from the crowd when he hit the line was simply magnificent.

Rant off.


Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2009, 10:12:33 pm »

3. Millar admitted his offences before he was caught (but he could hardly do anything else).

Did he?  Didn't know that.  I thought he was arrested unexpectedly whilst having a coffee with David Brailsford.

Quote
5. Millar is voiciferously anti doping.

What else can he be?



Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2009, 11:06:26 pm »
Because he comes from a former Eastern block country


Could you expand this bit please?

My geography is not great outside Australia unless it involves Wiltshire.  I put Kazak itwhateveritcan in the USSR boat of Eastern Block countries from the Cold War era.  I am probably wrong, but in my head it makes sense.

TheLurker

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2009, 08:16:09 am »
Oh bloody hell.
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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2009, 08:20:41 am »
Sorry, I what don't understand is how his coming from a former Eastern Bloc country can make him worse than David Milllar. Have I misread this?
[Quote/]Adrian, you're living proof that bandwidth is far too cheap.[/Quote]

ChrisO

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2009, 08:36:42 am »
I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.

You may not agree with it but I would have thought it was a fairly obvious comment.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2009, 08:37:58 am »
Someone please stop this travesty.

+1
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2009, 08:42:50 am »
I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.



T-mobile/Festina/Cofidis/Liberty Seguros etc etc etc.... systematic doping, and not one of them an eastern bloc team

ChrisO

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 09:52:28 am »
I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.



T-mobile/Festina/Cofidis/Liberty Seguros etc etc etc.... systematic doping, and not one of them an eastern bloc team

And your point would be ?

Marion Jones, Balco, Ben Johnson... they weren't from the eastern bloc either.  It's not mutually exclusive.

 "... and state-backed" - that's the difference, and that's also what made it systematic.


Seineseeker

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2009, 10:03:13 am »
Vino would be perfect for Astana ;)

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2009, 10:09:12 am »
I thought Vino was wine, not whine. ;D
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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2009, 10:11:41 am »
Armstrong is going to set up his own team anyway
Bruyneel might run Armstrongs team or could get a job elsewhere, I'm sure

I'm not so certain that Contador would want to stay with Astana.   Because

a) they have had funding problems
b) Vino would want to be the team leader
c) no Bruyneel
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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2009, 10:24:38 am »
I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.



T-mobile/Festina/Cofidis/Liberty Seguros etc etc etc.... systematic doping, and not one of them an eastern bloc team

And your point would be ?

Marion Jones, Balco, Ben Johnson... they weren't from the eastern bloc either.  It's not mutually exclusive.

 "... and state-backed" - that's the difference, and that's also what made it systematic.



The point being that where Vino comes from is irrelevant.  It may have been during the soviet era, but that ended two decades ago. 

I would have thought it was a fairly obvious comment.

Seineseeker

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2009, 10:43:48 am »
I agree with M.Pumpé! Plus Vino is too old to be team leader now. Astana is the obvious choice for him to return to, I don't imagine he can ever ride in the Tour again though.

gonzo

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2009, 11:10:37 am »
5. Millar is voiciferously anti doping.
What else can he be?

There are a lot of riders who've returned after doping sanctions who aren't.

ChrisO

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2009, 11:27:25 am »
]

The point being that where Vino comes from is irrelevant.  It may have been during the soviet era, but that ended two decades ago. 

I would have thought it was a fairly obvious comment.

errr... not in Kazakhstan.

Nazarbayev, is the former Communist leader and still runs the place in Soviet style as President-for-life with unfair and less-than-free elections where he wins 90% of the vote.

And Vinokourov as a teenager was part of the Kazakh sports school training system which was then part of the Soviet Union. He is a direct product of that state-backed systematic doping regime.

Clearly most people associated with cycling in Kazakhstan would also have been products, or indeed proponents, of that system. Which probably helps to also explain why they got involved with Liberty Seguros after the doping scandals when nobody wanted to touch them, and why their two best  riders have both been caught doping.

Sorry if that's not obvious enough for you.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2009, 11:41:42 am »
Great.....

.....but in the context of cycling and all the other positive tests, completely and utterly irrelevant.

Some of the earliest proponants of blood doping were the riders of the USA national team.  State sponsored too, or maybe that doesn't fit into your prejudices?

Seineseeker

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2009, 12:09:24 pm »
Come on, the fact that Vino is from Kazakhstan is irrelevant. Doping takes place in countries with all kinds of political systems. And apart from East Germany, the US is probably the greatest exponent of drug taking in sport. What's the difference between state backed doping and endemic doping in a "free" country?