Author Topic: Vino back to Astana  (Read 5552 times)

gonzo

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2009, 12:16:51 pm »
Just a quick question, but how many Kazakh riders have there been?

ChrisO

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2009, 12:41:04 pm »
Great.....

.....but in the context of cycling and all the other positive tests, completely and utterly irrelevant.

Some of the earliest proponants of blood doping were the riders of the USA national team.  State sponsored too, or maybe that doesn't fit into your prejudices?

Do you have some evidence of US government involvement and sanctioning of doping ? Even a rumour ? National-level athletes doping is not the same as a national system of doping.

And that's the difference Seineseeker - in a state-backed system it is virtually impossible to avoid doping. It is part of the system. Endemic doping in a free country is an individual choice, and generally done despite authorities rather than with their support.

The point is that the background of any rider (or other athlete) is relevant, that's all. In Vino's case it is relevant that he is a product of the Soviet sport system as is Kazakh cycling.

If we were talking about someone who had ridden for Festina or one of the drug-ridden teams, that would be relevant too. I find Armstrong's association with Michele Ferrari very dubious, and I find it hard to give much credit to Riis as an anti-doping DS or David Millar, though at least they say the right things. If an athlete had been associated with Balco and Victor Fuentes that would be relevant.

I don't know why but there appears to be a mistaken assumption that saying the eastern bloc connection is relevant is somehow ignoring or excusing other connections. Nobody is saying that.



 


ChrisO

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2009, 12:42:02 pm »
Just a quick question, but how many Kazakh riders have there been?

I can think of four, of whom two have been busted.

Vino
Kasechkin
Asabayev
Iglinsky


Seineseeker

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2009, 12:49:04 pm »
Except its virtually endemic in cycling, so you either dope or you don't become a pro. But I realise that's another argument. So I won't pursue that one, even if it gets some peoples hackles up.

vorsprung

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2009, 12:55:44 pm »
Except its virtually endemic in cycling, so you either dope or you don't become a pro. But I realise that's another argument. So I won't pursue that one, even if it gets some peoples hackles up.

It's interesting that Brad Wiggins ( who wouldn't dope, read his biog ) was placing well in mountain top finishes in the Giro this year
I wonder if less doping is happening
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Seineseeker

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2009, 01:00:41 pm »
Well yes, and I should have said endemic up until very recently. Last years TdF was slow (apparently) and Evans was second, and he is widely thought to be clean (I'm not saying Sastre isn't clean either)!

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2009, 01:41:24 pm »
Except its virtually endemic in cycling,.

Precisely.  The whole sport is submerged in doping and has been since its inception.  As far as we know there have been no state sponsored doping schemes in western countries, but that doesn't seem to have resulted in less liklihood of western athletes doping.... which is really the crux of the argument.

Trying to claim that an eastern european is more likely to cheat is ridiculous and prejudiced, especially considering that professional cycling is not a nation based sport.  That is why the Kazahk funded team of Astana is run by a Belgian.

(FWIW I think the fact that that particular belgian runs the team has far more bearing on the honesty or otherwise of the team)

gonzo

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2009, 01:47:43 pm »
Just a quick question, but how many Kazakh riders have there been?

I can think of four, of whom two have been busted.

Vino
Kasechkin
Asabayev
Iglinsky



Thanks for the list. I could only think of the first two hence my curiosity!

LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2009, 01:49:44 pm »

Do you have some evidence of US government involvement and sanctioning of doping ? Even a rumour ? National-level athletes doping is not the same as a national system of doping.


The 1984 Olympic cyclist blood doping came via Eddy B, the national coach, and their associated support team.

Do you need to see the USA-ian President actually putting the needles in?
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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2009, 01:50:52 pm »
Kazakh Coup To Oust Armstrong And Bruyneel From Team Astana? | Cyclingnews.com

I'm sure a deal has been cut behind the scenes.  Armstrong wants an American-ish team, doesn't want to be associated with Kazakhstan, but wants to be with Bruyneel.  Cue a new team any time now, and Astana going back to how things were with Vino leading.

ChrisO

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2009, 01:52:03 pm »
Except its virtually endemic in cycling,.


Trying to claim that an eastern european is more likely to cheat is ridiculous and prejudiced,

Well if anybody does that, you be sure to let us know. Along with the evidence of US government doping.

A bit more tinfoil in the hat might help.


gonzo

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2009, 01:54:15 pm »
Well yes, and I should have said endemic up until very recently. Last years TdF was slow (apparently) and Evans was second, and he is widely thought to be clean (I'm not saying Sastre isn't clean either)!

Interestingly, there were 4 saxo-bank/CSC guys from last years our squad with questionable blood values ( I won't name names) it was only a rumour, but publicised rumours from the peloton have a habit of being true.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2009, 01:59:53 pm »
A bit more tinfoil in the hat might help.

Unlike that comment.  You don't seem to be able to discuss issues without launching into personal attacks.  Perhaps you should stay away from internet fora.

Thor

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2009, 02:03:24 pm »
Kazakh Coup To Oust Armstrong And Bruyneel From Team Astana? | Cyclingnews.com

I'm sure a deal has been cut behind the scenes.  Armstrong wants an American-ish team, doesn't want to be associated with Kazakhstan, but wants to be with Bruyneel.  Cue a new team any time now, and Astana going back to how things were with Vino leading.

I'm surprised they didn't get this sorted out before the Tour - it would have solved the Contador vs Armstrong problem.
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ChrisO

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2009, 02:04:38 pm »
A bit more tinfoil in the hat might help.

Unlike that comment.  You don't seem to be able to discuss issues without launching into personal attacks.  Perhaps you should stay away from internet fora.

Whatever you say... Coming from the person who introduced "my prejudices" to this thread I accept that you are an expert on personal attacks.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2009, 02:07:03 pm »
That's a bit lame for you. Normally you're on the insults by now  ;)

inc

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2009, 02:38:28 pm »

Do you have some evidence of US government involvement and sanctioning of doping ? Even a rumour ? National-level athletes doping is not the same as a national system of doping.


The 1984 Olympic cyclist blood doping came via Eddy B, the national coach, and their associated support team.

Do you need to see the USA-ian President actually putting the needles in?

The major difference here is that it was perfectly legal then, so the USA national team were not doing anything illegal. I don't recall any illegal substances being used it was simply  blood transfusion of their own blood from altitude training. Illegal now of course.

ChrisO

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2009, 02:56:05 pm »
The difference is also that eastern bloc (Soviet, East German, Bulgarian etc) authorities officially approved and provided funding for scientific research, manufacture and supply related to the enhancement of performance by illegal doping as well as the avoidance of detection.

It was applied in a systematic manner to athletes in state-funded sports programmes and institutions.

This has been documented and reported by records and the testimony of people involved.

Nothing like that or on that scale has gone on in the US or other western nations. Though I say again I don't hold teams or sports blameless or think they are ethically superior. Clearly cycling authorities turned a blind eye to doping for years, as did managers and directors. However we were discussing Vinokourov.

Seineseeker

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2009, 04:41:06 pm »
Let's forget the whole eastern european thing, even if it was relevant, who cares?

The point of the thread after all.....

So Bruyneel leaves with Armstrong, and he gets back his American team with Lance there for say 1 more year to get it off the ground, and everyone has forgotten Contador's questionable (in terms of doping) TdF win that led to the breakup of Discovery, as they couldn't find new sponsors. In the meantime Astana gets back it's Kazakh team and their captain in Vino, and maybe get to keep Contador too. It's kind of a win all round situation for the main players isn't it?


gonzo

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2009, 05:45:05 pm »
Is Armstrong definitely racing next year?

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2009, 07:48:25 pm »
I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.

You may not agree with it but I would have thought it was a fairly obvious comment.

Yep, what he said  :thumbsup:

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2009, 08:38:25 pm »
So why worse than Millar?
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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2009, 08:54:27 pm »
I reckon I see Vino worse than Millar for two reasons:

1. I was brought up by a dominant mother that had an opinion on everything and at my tender ages, she seemed honest and knowledgeable.  The USSR and East Germany and Bulgaria, Romania etc, were all cheats.  Mainly for the above reason as explained by Chris.  This 'view' was indoctrinated into me.

2. I was a real fan of Vino.  I liked his riding style, his grit and determination.  He was my favourite rider.  The he went and got caught cheating.  I believe deep down I despise him for popping my little naive balloon about doping.  Of course this is silly, but my psyche is to blame  ;D

So Pumpe is probably right, my views are coloured, prejudiced, biased.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2009, 09:12:36 pm »
By that reckoning Millar is the more badly behaved of the two. Vino was indoctrinated from an early age. Millar doped of his ow volition as an insurance for an event where he felt he was going to do well anyway
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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2009, 09:15:21 pm »
Millar is possibly just as bad as Vino. I do like Millar though, as he does seem genuinely repentant. He could of course just be making it all up to get people to like him. However, he's a professional cyclist, not a professional actor.

There's been lots of stuff written about Millar and bearing in mind his nationality, we (or most of us) having English as our first language are more likely to read those things. I don't recall reading much said by Vino since he got busted (apart from his excuses), but he may have given his side of the story, but I've just never seen it.

Also, the English speaking (particularly British) cycling press were very hard on Millar and never had a good word to say about him after he got busted. Now they seem to love him and completely forgotten about it all.

I don't think Vino's nationality should have anything to do with it, but can understand why it may be raised.

I despise cheating of any sort - I can't stand it, but if the rules say he can ride again, then he can ride again.....
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!