Author Topic: Vino back to Astana  (Read 5555 times)

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2009, 09:49:12 pm »
I despise cheating of any sort - I can't stand it, but if the rules say he can ride again, then he can ride again.....

Good point. I hate cheats too, whether it's footballers' appealing for a throw-in when they know they touched the ball last or those taking performance enhancing drugs. The rules penalise cheats and permit them to return after sanction, whether we like it or not, but we don't have to like them. How I feel about riders who have served a ban (Miller: ok, but admitedly a bit uncomfortably; Vino: don't like) depends on how they conduct themselves after the event.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2009, 10:25:44 pm »
A team composed of Kazaks and Spanish...I'd love to see how they pitch that to the Tour organisers.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2009, 10:28:42 pm »
Imagine how bad the jersey would be!  ;D

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2009, 01:07:53 am »

The major difference here is that it was perfectly legal then, so the USA national team were not doing anything illegal. I don't recall any illegal substances being used it was simply  blood transfusion of their own blood from altitude training. Illegal now of course.


It involved blood transfusions from other people, not their own (not sufficient time available).  It was arguably illegal at the time and was specifically banned shortly afterwards, despite no test being available for many years.

I was using it as an example of USA athletes being coerced into dubious practices by their national team, despite their own misgivings about the morality and legality of the method.  The team's approach was 'any method that would help them win, unless specifically banned and tested for'.  This outlook obviously encourages Balco-type situations.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

ChrisO

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2009, 09:48:20 am »
This must be the only thread in the history of the internet where Australians have been accused of showing irrational bias and favouritism towards an English athlete.

No doubt the apocalypse will follow shortly.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2009, 09:56:25 am »
I don't recall any English athletes being mentioned in this thread  :P
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

ChrisO

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2009, 10:04:11 am »
Ah of course, he's Scottish isn't he.

That's alright then. Dirty cheating Russkies.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2009, 05:05:51 pm »
English, Scottish, the countries are so close together that from halfway round the world they look the same.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

finch

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2009, 08:48:41 am »
Apparently the boy has a Scottish parent , was born in Malta and grew up in Hong Kong . As a proud Scot I won't be claiming him any time soon . We don't need Millar we have Chris Hoy et al . The English can keep him  ;)

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2009, 02:47:56 pm »
Apparently the boy has a Scottish parent , was born in Malta and grew up in Hong Kong . As a proud Scot I won't be claiming him any time soon . We don't need Millar we have Chris Hoy et al . The English can keep him  ;)

Chris Hoy has said on a number of occasions that he first and foremost considers himself British. Sure, it could just be for the cameras, but seeing as Britannia didn't ever include what is now Scotland - we'll keep him! Cheers  :P
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2009, 09:56:38 am »
So why worse than Millar?

The way Millar tells it is that he never really wanted to dope, he was just caught up in the systemic doping that was still part of cycling at the time. He was largely left to his own devices by his team, but they still put immense pressure on him to win races. Eventually the pressure got to the point where he caved in.

And call me a credulous fool, but I believe him. I believe that he is truly repentant and I believe that he is strongly opposed to doping. He is now part of a team that has a strong anti-doping ethic and makes a point of providing proper pastoral care for its riders so they are far less likely to succumb to the temptation to cheat.

That is why he is different to Vinokourov.

But I don't think Vinokourov is by any means the worst offender - I'd give that honour to Tyler Hamilton, mainly for his arrogance and his apparent desire to see the sport of cycling dragged through the mud. Another of my credulous beliefs is that the majority of cyclists and people involved in pro cycling really do want to clean up the sport, and Hamilton's behaviour suggests that he doesn't want to allow that to happen. IIRC, he's American, isn't he? (Dwain Chambers has had a similarly damaging effect on British running, and he's not from the Eastern Bloc either.)

d.

gonzo

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2009, 03:07:08 pm »
I'd give that honour to Tyler Hamilton, mainly for his arrogance and his apparent desire to see the sport of cycling dragged through the mud. Another of my credulous beliefs is that the majority of cyclists and people involved in pro cycling really do want to clean up the sport, and Hamilton's behaviour suggests that he doesn't want to allow that to happen. IIRC, he's American, isn't he? (Dwain Chambers has had a similarly damaging effect on British running, and he's not from the Eastern Bloc either.)

I can't help but feel a little sorry for Tyler the second time - he was caught on anti-depressants. Cycling is known as a good way to alleviate depression and now he can't do that either.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2009, 08:08:39 pm »

I can't help but feel a little sorry for Tyler the second time - he was caught on anti-depressants. Cycling is known as a good way to alleviate depression and now he can't do that either.

He can, he just can't get paid for it.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

rdaviesb

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2009, 10:10:49 pm »
Quote
But I don't think Vinokourov is by any means the worst offender - I'd give that honour to Tyler Hamilton

+1

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2009, 12:51:28 pm »
I know he has been expunged from memory, but as bad as Tyler was, how can you say he's worse than Floyd Landis?

Let's face it, Landis had lost the tour, cheated, made a spectacular and unbelievable comeback (much like Vino) and then proceeded to not only drage cycling and UCI through the mud but blew the lid on Greg LeMond's very private past and personal life.

If that is not pond scum, then I don't know what is.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2009, 01:06:57 pm »
I know he has been expunged from memory, but as bad as Tyler was, how can you say he's worse than Floyd Landis?

Yeah, fair point. Landis is probably as bad as Hamilton, maybe worse.

d.

Seineseeker

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2009, 01:24:55 pm »
Hamilton and Landis both had these "he's innocent" campaigns too. And there was a lot of chat on forums defending the pair of them, but none really for Vino.

So what is Landis up to these days?

gonzo

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2009, 05:57:17 pm »
Hamilton and Landis both had these "he's innocent" campaigns too. And there was a lot of chat on forums defending the pair of them, but none really for Vino.

So what is Landis up to these days?

Racing for a team called, I think; 'Ouch!'

The difference between Tyler and Floyd is that the people who understood the science tended to agree with Floyd, but not Tyler.

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2009, 06:33:22 pm »
Hamilton and Landis both had these "he's innocent" campaigns too. And there was a lot of chat on forums defending the pair of them, but none really for Vino.

So what is Landis up to these days?

Racing for a team called, I think; 'Ouch!'

The difference between Tyler and Floyd is that the people who understood the science tended to agree with Floyd, but not Tyler.

I'd agree that Tyler's excuses were pathetically unbelievable, but Floyd's defences mostly suggested a series of errors had conspired to produce a posititve result. We have the same instrumentation here and a keen cyclist who was working in the labs (I've got to be careful what i say because she sometimes haunts these fora), but my recollection was that she thought the data that convicted him were reasonably sound.

So I'd say that Floyd's lawyers put up the usual smokescreen to try and suggest that some terrible conspiracy was at work, but in all probability I'd suggest otherwise.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2009, 06:46:25 pm »
people who understood the science tended to agree with Floyd

Really? I thought the people who backed him mostly consisted of: a) his highly paid lawyers and b) his good buddy Lance Armstrong.

Not the scientists.

I can understand him being persistent in his claims if he really does believe he's innocent, but he's certainly not done much to help the image of the sport.

At least Vino has had the grace to "retire" and disappear into obscurity. Oh, hang on...

d.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2009, 06:51:49 pm »
I'd agree that Tyler's excuses were pathetically unbelievable

And of course there's the small matter of the positive test for steroids earlier this year, which just makes his protests of innocence the first time around seem even less believable.

It would be really unfair to class Millar as "just as bad" as Hamilton.

d.

gonzo

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2009, 06:54:14 pm »
I should make my position clear before we go any further - I believe that Floyd was convicted of the wrong thing; I think that he was on something, but that the labs screwed up.

Interesting post on the previous topic here: The end of the road for Landis.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2009, 07:03:17 pm »
Interesting post on the previous topic here: The end of the road for Landis.

That is very interesting. My gut feeling (for what it's worth) is that the detection of synthetic steroids is pretty damning evidence of some kind of foul play, regardless of the other anomalies in the test results - the dopers are always one step ahead of the testers, so who knows what it was that the tests detected? But I believe they did detect something that shouldn't have been there.

d.

gonzo

Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2009, 04:11:43 pm »
Interesting post on the previous topic here: The end of the road for Landis.

That is very interesting. My gut feeling (for what it's worth) is that the detection of synthetic steroids is pretty damning evidence of some kind of foul play, regardless of the other anomalies in the test results - the dopers are always one step ahead of the testers, so who knows what it was that the tests detected? But I believe they did detect something that shouldn't have been there.

I should point out that my mental image is of those labs being full of a load of monkeys in white coats being slipped bananas by l'equipe to allow them access!

IanDG

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Re: Vino back to Astana
« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2009, 11:10:54 pm »
Because he comes from a former Eastern block country


Could you expand this bit please?

My geography is not great outside Australia unless it involves Wiltshire.  I put Kazak itwhateveritcan in the USSR boat of Eastern Block countries from the Cold War era.  I am probably wrong, but in my head it makes sense.

I would presume because the eastern bloc countries had systematic and state-backed doping regimes.

And while the fall of the Iron Curtain happened ahead of Vinokourov's time one suspects that a lot of people still in their sports and indeed now coaching and running them, are people whose hands are fairly dirty and may have a more lax view of such matters.

You may not agree with it but I would have thought it was a fairly obvious comment.

Isn't drug taking part of the American sport culture too (i.e. American football)?