Author Topic: We know Wiggins is clean because...  (Read 7725 times)

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2009, 01:47:19 pm »
To be honest what annoys me is people saying we know so and so is clean because..... (and usually it's because we like them for some reason).  We don't know if they are clean, we just know that some of them aren't when they fail a test.
Indeed. Innocent until proven guilty ?. Not here it seems.

Why do you keep going on about "not here" . It isn't just here, it's through the whole of cycling in case you hadn't noticed.


Why shouldn't I express my view ? Of course I have noticed that views here are same as those that the written media have.

I am not making out ttat "people are being unnecessarily suspicious about riders who haven't failed tests". I am saying that rules are rules and until they are broken they are not broken. I have never said I think rider X is clean. Ever.

onb

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Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2009, 01:49:25 pm »
To be honest what annoys me is people saying we know so and so is clean because..... (and usually it's because we like them for some reason).  We don't know if they are clean, we just know that some of them aren't when they fail a test.
Indeed. Innocent until proven guilty ?. Not here it seems.

Why do you keep going on about "not here" . It isn't just here, it's through the whole of cycling in case you hadn't noticed.

There are plenty of cycling journalists and followers who are happy to help point fingers, and it has frequently been the case that the people and teams who have rumours about them are the ones who later get found out. It's perfectly legitimate to suggest that if you associate with people - directors, trainers, doctors etc - who are tainted by doping then it increases both the suspicion and the likelihood that you are also involved in it.

Among the people who never failed a dope test are:
Bjarne Riis
David Millar
Marco Pantani

Add to that the comments from Bernard Kohl about the way teams are using the biological passport to help avoid being caught.

Like you I'm also not particularly bothered about it - I just enjoy the racing and it is phenomenal, whether they are taking drugs or not. But to make out that people are being unneccessarily suspicious about riders who haven't failed tests is just ignoring established facts.

Pantani failed a test for crit levels during the Giro one year.
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Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2009, 01:52:30 pm »
If you read his biography you will see that his father, who was a track rider in the 60s was fucked up by the amphetamines that he took to perform during the 6 day events.

I know this is way off topic, but what ever happened with his father's mysterious death?
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2009, 01:54:53 pm »
Crit levels were a "safety check" remember? ;)

mattc

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Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2009, 02:16:04 pm »
It's perfectly legitimate to suggest that if you associate with people - directors, trainers, doctors etc - who are tainted by doping then it increases both the suspicion and the likelihood that you are also involved in it.


Those 2 are very different things. You really should differentiate between them better.
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

ChrisO

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2009, 02:29:38 pm »
It's perfectly legitimate to suggest that if you associate with people - directors, trainers, doctors etc - who are tainted by doping then it increases both the suspicion and the likelihood that you are also involved in it.


Those 2 are very different things. You really should differentiate between them better.

Well spotted - that's why I used two different words.

ChrisO

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2009, 02:38:50 pm »
To be honest what annoys me is people saying we know so and so is clean because..... (and usually it's because we like them for some reason).  We don't know if they are clean, we just know that some of them aren't when they fail a test.
Indeed. Innocent until proven guilty ?. Not here it seems.

Why do you keep going on about "not here" . It isn't just here, it's through the whole of cycling in case you hadn't noticed.


Why shouldn't I express my view ? Of course I have noticed that views here are same as those that the written media have.

I am not making out ttat "people are being unnecessarily suspicious about riders who haven't failed tests". I am saying that rules are rules and until they are broken they are not broken. I have never said I think rider X is clean. Ever.

"until they are broken they are not broken"

So you can take banned substances but until you are caught you haven't broken the rules ?

If you aren't prepared to say that riders are clean then I don't see it as logical to also claim that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

If someone cheats then they are a cheat whether they get found out or not.

It's the difference between being Not Guilty in a legal sense and Innocent in a moral sense.

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2009, 02:56:48 pm »
You are putting words into my mouth now ChrisO. Morality ? This is professional sport. It up to the officials to decide what is right and wrong. You may of course disagree with that, I happen to wish to let them get on with their job, while I get on with mine. That's all.

Are you prepared to say rider X is clean ? I mean for sure ? not just you think or you hope ? How will you be sure ?

My underlying view is that no one is above suspicion and testing is the right way to find them out. The current tests are not good enough, they never have been and never will be but it has to be testable.  people will take all sorts of potions, they need to know what will and what will not show up on a test.

mattc

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Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2009, 03:15:15 pm »
It's perfectly legitimate to suggest that if you associate with people - directors, trainers, doctors etc - who are tainted by doping then it increases both the suspicion and the likelihood that you are also involved in it.


Those 2 are very different things. You really should differentiate between them better.

Well spotted - that's why I used two different words.
I know, but you did put them very close together - which increased the likelihood of you treating them the same ;)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LEE

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2009, 03:34:50 pm »
Unless I use my criteria of "Innocent until provent guilty" then watching any competetive sport is pointless for me.

If a rider (or any sports person) has never been found guilty of cheating then, in my book, they never cheated.  I can happily watch them compete.

If someone is found guilty of cheating then, in my book, they probably always cheated.  I can happily forget about them forever in that case.

Nobody on this forum knows who, amongst all the 'clean' riders, is cheating or not.  It's all speculation and/or favouritism.  I couldn't watch sport if I was constantly speculating (or, more accurately, guessing) about who was cheating.  Once you start along that path then the sport is totally devalued and you may as well watch horse-racing.  At least with horse-racing you know for sure it's all corrupt.

ChrisO

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2009, 03:48:12 pm »
As if to neatly support my point about associations and rumours... Danilo di Luca has been suspended today for positive test during this year's Giro.

He was previously suspended for three months in 2007 not for failing a dope test but for working with a doctor who had been found guilty of supplying banned substances.


Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2009, 03:49:36 pm »
We know Wiggins is clean because...








Spoiler









He has been dropped by Contador on the penultimate climb 





gonzo

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2009, 02:26:54 pm »
As I said earlier, Wiggins hasn't been implicated in a single doping scandal. Riders are always implicated before they get caught.

Seineseeker

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Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2009, 02:47:39 pm »
Was Millar implicated before he got busted?

Though I do think that's a good point.

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2009, 02:53:10 pm »
Cofidis of that era were a bit dodgy.  That was why the police raided his flat...

gonzo

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2009, 05:12:41 pm »
Interestingly:
Wiggins, in stark contrast to Simpson, is riding clean and is prepared to demonstrate it in wholly unprecedented ways. He's now asked the UCI, cycling's governing body, to publish his blood values taken for their biological passport programme – an anti-doping system that monitors riders' physiological data.

The data will be available on Monday, as will all his results from his team's internal testing programme.


            Bradley Wiggins: 'Tom will be watching over me on Ventoux' -
            Others, More Sports - The Independent


Going out of his way to get his bio data published? Clearly a mark of a doper ;)

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2009, 09:11:29 pm »

He's the best puncher on the Tour.
He gave that twat a nice dig in the ribs.

Nice one Wiggo.  :thumbsup:
They're not fans, just moronic twats.
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gonzo

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2009, 11:12:10 pm »

He's the best puncher on the Tour.
He gave that twat a nice dig in the ribs.

Nice one Wiggo.  :thumbsup:
They're not fans, just moronic twats.

What happened?

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2009, 06:48:26 pm »

He's the best puncher on the Tour.
He gave that twat a nice dig in the ribs.

Nice one Wiggo.  :thumbsup:
They're not fans, just moronic twats.

What happened?

About 2k from the top when he was hanging on for dear life, an idiot ran out in front of him.
Luckily it never broke his rhythm. But Wiggo swung at the pleb and caught him.
This was on the live filming and it was in the background of the filming - as the camera was on
the others. I just glimpsed it quite by chance.
It was omitted from the highlights.
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Have given this a great deal of thought and decided not to contribute to any further Threads for the time being.
POTD. (decade) :thumbsup:

ChrisO

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2009, 10:46:08 am »
This may be, in fact probably is, total bollocks but...

A poster on the Eurosport forum was claiming that he was involved in the testing and that several top riders are likely to either have results announced against them or at least have the finger of suspicion pointed based on their biological profiles.

He alleges that it is two out of Armstrong, Wiggins and Vande Velde, and also one of the other top 7 riders - so Contador, the Schlecks, Nibali and Kloden.

Claimed he works for either AFLD or UCI and that they are letting info leak out to contradict various public positions, and that it will be confirmed once the dust has settled in 6-8 weeks due partly to political and financial pressure.

Personally I think it is total crap, particularly in regard to Garmin, and judging by his other posts he knows f-all about cycling.

But it is odd nevertheless that there've been no positives this year - from what Bernard Kohl was saying it is still widespread. I suspect the final results have not been set in stone yet.

clarion

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Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2009, 10:50:04 am »
There are a lot of self-aggrandising bullshitters on the interwebs.  It's entirely possible that some tests have been 'not passed', and by prominent riders, too, but, until the announcements are made, I think it's best not to speculate who.

FWIW, I felt that the way the race was pretty closely fought almost right to the end indicated a probably fairer contest than we've seen in some previous years.

And, whatever I may think of his previous rides, I am prepared to believe that LA was clean this year, unless I hear of tests that show otherwise.
Getting there...

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2009, 10:57:21 am »
But it is odd nevertheless that there've been no positives this year - from what Bernard Kohl was saying it is still widespread. I suspect the final results have not been set in stone yet.

It took a couple of months for di Luca's Giro positive to be revealed.  I think we'll be seeing some in september.  At a guess I'd say some deal has been reached not to have exposes during or soon after the Tour, because too many and there won't be another Tour.

If you listen to what the testers have been saying over the previous 6 months, they planned to target those riders with suspect passports. IIRC they even gave a number of suspect riders.  

Astana seemed to get tested quite a lot didn't they.

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2009, 11:07:11 am »

More post-race podium shuffling?
It's not fair on GruB.
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gonzo

Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2009, 02:40:29 pm »
This may be, in fact probably is, total bollocks but...

A poster on the Eurosport forum was claiming that he was involved in the testing and that several top riders are likely to either have results announced against them or at least have the finger of suspicion pointed based on their biological profiles.

He alleges that it is two out of Armstrong, Wiggins and Vande Velde, and also one of the other top 7 riders - so Contador, the Schlecks, Nibali and Kloden.

Claimed he works for either AFLD or UCI and that they are letting info leak out to contradict various public positions, and that it will be confirmed once the dust has settled in 6-8 weeks due partly to political and financial pressure.

Personally I think it is total crap, particularly in regard to Garmin, and judging by his other posts he knows f-all about cycling.

But it is odd nevertheless that there've been no positives this year - from what Bernard Kohl was saying it is still widespread. I suspect the final results have not been set in stone yet.


I don't suppose you've got the original post?

Basil

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Re: We know Wiggins is clean because...
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2009, 04:27:05 pm »

Claimed he works for either AFLD or UCI....<snip>

Quote
.... and judging by his other posts he knows f-all about cycling.


That bit seems to make sense.  :demon:
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