Author Topic: Raynaud's Syndrome?  (Read 2502 times)

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2019, 08:35:43 am »
If you got cold, it's not a question of better clothes, just more of them!
Merino is warm so would be good, especially when you do warm up and start to sweat.  But other fabrics would do.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2019, 09:11:25 am »
I was toying with putting another set of tights without a pad over my tights with a pad but I thought it would be too uncomfortable and not something I've done before so doing it on my first 300 would be a bit stupid. Do you do that?

I'm not sure I can physically wear more clothes otherwise!

I've just been avoiding riding in the cold but this was unavoidable.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2019, 09:53:59 am »
Reducing windchill to hands seems to be very very important. I used to have no problems when cycling, but always carried big (water and windproof) overmitts in my jersey pockets. If my hands got chilly, these went on over gloves.

Same when kayaking; I might have arms bare up to the elbows and a sweating body, but my fingers will turn to white blocks of ice. Unless I use pogies. These are just nylon and reflective 'bags' over the paddle shaft. Even if water gets in, they stop windchill, and seem to prevent the temperature shock that triggers the shutdown of capillaries.
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hellymedic

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Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2019, 10:22:44 am »
I think reducing windchill on both arms and legs might help and getting wind stopping leggings is another suggestion.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2019, 10:42:47 am »
Thanks, guys. Windstopper leggings are my next move.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2019, 11:37:42 am »
Silk is probably the best in terms of warmth retention, even better than merino.  Jasmine silk do very thin silk gloves but these make a tremendous difference to temperature maintenance.  they also do "beanie" type silk hats and socks.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2019, 12:00:10 pm »
If you get cross country ski leggings they are windproof at the front and breath at the back and have nice stretch.  Designed for aerobic activity in cold conditions.  You can buy padded undershorts to go under them.    I have a pair from Salomon used for cross country skiing but equally good to use them for cycling when its cold.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2019, 12:51:45 pm »
Chainsaws are all rated for vibration, and the less vibration they produce, then the longer you can use them within the EU Vibration Directive. Professional saws allow the longest exposure. That's why pros don't use cheap saws.

That has implications for long-distance cycling. Padded bars help, but the forgotten factor is the effect of vibration on feet, which are more directly connected to road vibration. Tyre pressures have the most bearing on vibration, and that leads to using bigger tyres.

mattc

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Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2019, 01:05:48 pm »
Padded bars help, but the forgotten factor is the effect of vibration on feet, which are more directly connected to road vibration.
Are you sure? I'd say your hands are much more directly connected.

Your feet have the length of a down-tube (or chain-stays) plus the cranks acting as suspension. Your hands just have the stem and some/most of the handlebar.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2019, 01:25:02 pm »
It's possible to pad the bars, and wear padded gloves, but there's rarely enough space in cycling shoes to put much padding in. The effects of vibration are related to length of exposure, and numb/tingling feet are one of the symptoms people report after PBP/LEL.

More compliant tyres and wheels are the main safeguard against that.

arabella

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Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2019, 01:28:12 pm »
I also read somewhere that in fact warm ears make a difference.  I've yet to conduct a properly controlled set of trials as to whether warm ears helps reduce the appearance of Reynauds.
(Mine is fairly random, but I think damp may be more of a factor than absolute (lack of) temperature)
In the dark, all views are the same.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2019, 01:32:13 pm »
Vibration White Finger is a definite medical Thing.

I'm not sure how much vibration feet get while cycling; there must be some damping but hours awheel add up.

My solid-tyred wheelchair transmits everything to the armrests, which makes outdoor journeys very tiring.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2019, 01:41:36 pm »
I also read somewhere that in fact warm ears make a difference.  I've yet to conduct a properly controlled set of trials as to whether warm ears helps reduce the appearance of Reynauds.
(Mine is fairly random, but I think damp may be more of a factor than absolute (lack of) temperature)
I can report that I have had a head sodden in sweat and boiling hot (I was wearing a buff, covering my ears) and fingers that were so numb that I could not tell if I were holding a paddle or not.

Cold is not the sole determining factor. It is temperature shock that brings on an 'attack' for me. Come in to the warmth from somewhere cold and circulation to my fingers is as likely to shut down as if I plunged them into ice water.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

mattc

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Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2019, 02:39:18 pm »
It's possible to pad the bars, and wear padded gloves, but there's rarely enough space in cycling shoes to put much padding in. The effects of vibration are related to length of exposure, and numb/tingling feet are one of the symptoms people report after PBP/LEL.

More compliant tyres and wheels are the main safeguard against that.
How about L-shaped cranks?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2019, 07:33:19 pm »
Chainsaws are all rated for vibration, and the less vibration they produce, then the longer you can use them within the EU Vibration Directive. Professional saws allow the longest exposure. That's why pros don't use cheap saws.

That has implications for long-distance cycling. Padded bars help, but the forgotten factor is the effect of vibration on feet, which are more directly connected to road vibration. Tyre pressures have the most bearing on vibration, and that leads to using bigger tyres.

Sorry but this is irrelevant unless you can show me that the vibration from the road is of the same frequency and amplitude as that from a chainsaw. In addition you need to look at a triaxial weighted average over a number of years. Just because it is vibration does not mean it is dangerous.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2019, 10:44:57 pm »
Going back to clothes:
In really cold weather, I wear two merino base layers.  One close fitting with a snug neck (Endura are reasonable price) and over that a tatty old Aldi one. Topped off with a windproof or waterproof jacket with sleeves long enough not to leave gaps.

Tights - bib tights really are warmer than non-bibs - reduces draughts.  I stick with the Gore women's bib tights because they have pit zips so I don't have to strip off to go to the loo.  The Gore ones work better for pit stops than the Endura women's bib-tights in my experience. Too much information if you are male!  I have seen folks wear bib tights with waterproof or windproof MTB type shorts on top for a bit of extra protection - which looked quite comfortable

As someone else has commented, keep your ears warm.  I wear a buff in balaclava style to keep the draughts out of my neck and my head.  But that is not tight enough to keep my ears warm, so I wear a headband on top to keep my ears close to my head.

I suspect I look like a bag lady who has put on all the clothes I own....
But there aren't too many people to see me in the North Pennines

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2019, 11:04:28 pm »
I don't wear tights but I expect two pairs might be a bit uncomfortable.  I just wear tracksuit bottoms, Ron hill or similar, with an old pair of shorts underneath. When its been really cold I've worn leg warmers underneath, which has worked ok

I mainly focus on having enough layers on my top half.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2019, 06:47:24 pm »
Going back to clothes:
The Gore ones work better for pit stops than the Endura women's bib-tights in my experience.

This is great info and just what I need. I've been looking at the Gore ones.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2019, 09:03:34 am »
Gore have put a lot of effort into their women's clothes. 
I seem to fit into their ideas of size and shape, but it is a personal thing.
Most irritating thing about a lot of women's kit is fiddly little zips, and shortage of pockets, things worth checking.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2019, 09:41:12 am »
Chainsaws are all rated for vibration, and the less vibration they produce, then the longer you can use them within the EU Vibration Directive. Professional saws allow the longest exposure. That's why pros don't use cheap saws.

That has implications for long-distance cycling. Padded bars help, but the forgotten factor is the effect of vibration on feet, which are more directly connected to road vibration. Tyre pressures have the most bearing on vibration, and that leads to using bigger tyres.

Sorry but this is irrelevant unless you can show me that the vibration from the road is of the same frequency and amplitude as that from a chainsaw. In addition you need to look at a triaxial weighted average over a number of years. Just because it is vibration does not mean it is dangerous.

It would be hard to disentangle the cumulative effects of chainsaw use, motorcycling and cycling in my case. I'm self-employed, so I've only got myself to blame for my Raynaud's/VFW.

One common feature between the chainsaw use and the cycling is being contracted to meet deadlines regardless of weather. That's within the context of PBP qualification, where you can end up riding in poor weather conditions. That's when all the factors discussed upthread come into play; clothing management being one of the most important. The other main factors are the amount of vibration coming through the bars, the length of exposure to that vibration, and the influence of fatigue on posture.

Employers have a duty of care to consider these sort of factors, to provide PPE, and to inform their employees about the risks. As someone who's Googled VFW, I get ambulance-chasing ads to get me to claim against my employer, but that's me. So all I can do is assess the effects of various bits of kit, and prioritise my various activities. The upshot is that I'm unlikely to commit myself to riding in poor weather, as that's likely to cause unpaid pain.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2019, 09:49:48 am »
Vibration white finger and Raynaud's phenomenon are part of my special interest.  Whilst I have some disagreements with the industrial injuries advisory Council about the level of proof which I think is generally on the low side, I fully agree with them that there is no evidence that vibration white finger can be caused by motorcycling and the sort of vibration that comes from motorcycling.

Similarly there is no evidence at all that cycling will cause vibration white finger.  The most likely event with cycling would be hypothenar hammer syndrome which is damage to the ulnar artery at the base of the wrist.

Relatively poorly recognised factor is that the age of onset of Raynaud's syndrome in men has two peaks, the first as in women in the late teens and early 20s and then another peak in the late 40s/early 50s.

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2019, 10:39:21 am »
I'd agree with this statement.

Quote
35. A vibration specialist from the Institute of Sound and Vibration Research commented that “the scientific literature is rather patchy, but shows that the vibration on the handlebars of bikes can be of sufficient magnitude to anticipate a risk meriting control measures”...and also that “the potential for vibration on the handlebars of motorbikes to cause the condition is sufficiently well recognised for it to be a matter that is commonly considered as an alternative explanation for symptoms in civil claims for compensation”. In other words, the hazard is well recognised and cases of HAVS can sometimes arise given the right combination of circumstances.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/613918/hand-arm-vibration-syndrome-and-risk-from-motorcycle-handlebars-iiac-information-note.pdf

Chainsaw use, cycling and motorcycling all cause the onset of Raynaud's symptoms in my case. So I adopt control measures. Padding at contact points, amelioration of vibration transmission where possible, and clothing management. I'll never be in a position to put in a claim, which does clear some of the mud from the waters, as I've been technically at work in all three activities, as well as recreationally.

If people want to ride PBP and the qualifiers on stiff frames and wheels, with 23mm tyres pumped up to 100psi+, with a single layer of bar-tape, and insufficient carrying capacity for clothing management, that's entirely their concern.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2019, 01:39:29 pm »
<pedant> Raynaud's Phenomenon is not Raynaud's Syndrome/Disease, though it is a feature thereof...

Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2019, 02:01:41 pm »
Pedant avoidance: Which is why I usually just refer to "Reynaulds" :)

I did hear, but don't know if it is true, that every incidence of capillary shut down causes more tissue damage and makes you even more susceptible in future.
Now that is scary.  Has anyone else heard this?


Re: Raynaud's Syndrome?
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2019, 02:05:11 pm »
Pedant avoidance: Which is why I usually just refer to "Reynaulds" :)

I did hear, but don't know if it is true, that every incidence of capillary shut down causes more tissue damage and makes you even more susceptible in future.
Now that is scary.  Has anyone else heard this?



Not true.  Raynaud's results in loss of skin blood flow not whole finger blood flow.

Helly, I agree but as most so called raynaud's Syndrome is prodromal for something else there are probably very few true cases of Syndrome and loads of phenomenon.