Author Topic: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight  (Read 8705 times)

Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #150 on: March 19, 2010, 07:57:23 pm »
Yes, a "morning" or "on your right" is just as startling when coming from a cyclist right behind your wheel that you didn't know was there.  No one should have to keep looking behind just to ensure they're not startled by people coming too close, so you shouldn't punish them for it.

Bear in mind the comments about a silent fast flypast above - they, nor I like those either.  I feel it's much more polite and safer to announce your presence.  You're leaving me with a rock and a hard place scenario - he'd have been startled no matter how he eventually noticed me.

I really don't think I was too close in this instance - there was an entire bus lane for us to occupy, I stayed behind him and well to the side leaving him plenty of room to dodge potholes, and there was almost no speed difference.

And why the punish comment?  I did no such thing.
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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #151 on: March 19, 2010, 08:02:49 pm »
OK, back on to the hearing vs looking discussion.   Since Flatus doesn't have the courage of his convictions, at least not enough to be filmed, I'll throw out a challenge to those of you who strongly believe hearing is very important.    Let's get some traffic footage and look at how you ride the situations presented, and interact with the traffic.  I'm happy to meet in London and do some filming, or someone else can film you.  Who's up for this?
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Biggsy

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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #152 on: March 19, 2010, 08:14:50 pm »
It's punishing to startle when you know the person will be startled.  When you know they haven't seen you, you should know they will be startled if you suddenly speak when you're really close.

Startling can be avoided by giving the person loads of room and not saying anything.
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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #153 on: March 19, 2010, 08:26:15 pm »
It's punishing to startle when you know the person will be startled.

See above - I guess you missed where I said I'd no idea this would startle him and no intention of doing so.  I didn't realise at the time he hadn't looked back, only after he got a fright and confirmed by watching the video.  We'll have to agree to disagree on announcing your presence.

Quite apart from this incident, is it really good practice to expect to ride along and not look behind yourself if you're going in a straight line?
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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #154 on: March 19, 2010, 08:31:52 pm »
p.s. it's inner London on a busy Saturday morning, for goodness sake.  How can you not expect other cyclists, electric cars, and other vehicles around and behind you?
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Jaded

  • The Codfather
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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #155 on: March 19, 2010, 08:40:42 pm »
Quite apart from this incident, is it really good practice to expect to ride along and not look behind yourself if you're going in a straight line?

Depends on the location, doesn't it. And if you have ears.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Biggsy

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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #156 on: March 19, 2010, 08:57:09 pm »
See above - I guess you missed where I said I'd no idea this would startle him and no intention of doing so.  I didn't realise at the time he hadn't looked back, only after he got a fright and confirmed by watching the video.  We'll have to agree to disagree on announcing your presence.

Ok, I accept that you didn't deliberately mean to startle, but you should have realised that you might have startled him.  You should assume that no one has seen you unless you've seen them seeing you.

It's still startling when someone suddlenly invades your personal space, even if it's likely to happen a few times during a busy urban ride.  It's an animal brain thing.

I'm sure I have startled a few cyclists with some imperfect/selfish riding, but I generally try not to by giving them an exaggerated amount of room - more room than they need for me to merely pass safely, or ride near safely.  I don't need to announce my presence at all then.

Quote
Quite apart from this incident, is it really good practice to expect to ride along and not look behind yourself if you're going in a straight line?

I think it's good practice to mentally relax when you can.  You can do that when there's nothing ahead that is likely to make you deviate from your line.
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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #157 on: March 19, 2010, 10:11:44 pm »
I'm happy to meet in London and do some filming, or someone else can film you.  Who's up for this?

Frankly, I don't have the time.

I've ridden an average of 8000miles a year commuting for the last 3 years, on fast A roads, county lanes and heavy inner city traffic. About 20% in city rush hour. Many more miles that that in cities, from london to leeds to Perth, Australia.

The only collision or near collision I've had was hitting a door when a stationary car opened a passenger door. One collision in 22years of commuting.
I think that the only evidence is doing it. On that basis, unless you haven't had an accident in your brief experience, you should be coming to me for lessons.

Now can we draw a veil over this rather tedious debate?


Edit; I have no wish to come over superior or patronizing to anyone here, I'm just a tad tired of the debate.  YMMV is a very good phrase, we all need to ride our own wheels.
Double Edit;
Now I've said this, it's a bl**dy guarantee someone wipes me out monday morning, isn't it?
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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #158 on: March 19, 2010, 10:45:27 pm »
Awwwww >:(
What about the 'best cyclist in London' competition?
I'm looking forward to the footage...

Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #159 on: March 19, 2010, 10:48:52 pm »
so you shouldn't punish them for it.

"Quick, there's a POB  flagrantly flouting the advice given in Cyclecraft and by CTUK....

....somebody call.....


........ Wendy"





(lol)






Remember when you asked me to point out when you're being a childish bell-end?

It's time.

Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #160 on: March 20, 2010, 08:11:17 am »
Biggsy, passing wide and quietly is no guarantee of not startling anyone either, in my experience it gives perhaps a similar chance of surprise.  Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, just as with calling out your presence.  I didn't get in his personal space.

mrcharly, your experience and lack of crashes is more an indication of how safe cycling is, not necessarily that it's OK not to look back as much as you should.  And my cycling experience isn't as brief as you say, I don't know where you get that from.

The point remains, if you don't look, sooner or later a monster will come up and surprise you no matter how highly tuned your hearing.  I hope it's nothing worse than a surprise, and I hope it doesn't happen to me either when I don't look enough.  I'm glad Jaded and a few of you have accepted this is the case.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Rig of Jarkness

  • An Englishman abroad
Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #161 on: March 20, 2010, 08:18:46 am »
Wendy, you were well out of order to distract his attention just as he approached that junction - you should consider yourself lucky that he didn't ride into the back of that car.
Aero but not dynamic

Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #162 on: March 20, 2010, 08:26:30 am »
Awwwww >:(
What about the 'best cyclist in London' competition?
I'm looking forward to the footage...

LOL!  But it's not about that, and I would be further down that list than I am on bikejournal anyway.  I have a theory that those cyclists who insist on how important hearing is will not look enough, and that should be obvious on any video.  Already several on here have admitted they don't look as well as they probably should.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Jaded

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  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #163 on: March 20, 2010, 08:48:00 am »
Biggsy, passing wide and quietly is no guarantee of not startling anyone either, in my experience it gives perhaps a similar chance of surprise.  Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, just as with calling out your presence.  I didn't get in his personal space.

mrcharly, your experience and lack of crashes is more an indication of how safe cycling is, not necessarily that it's OK not to look back as much as you should.  And my cycling experience isn't as brief as you say, I don't know where you get that from.

The point remains, if you don't look, sooner or later a monster will come up and surprise you no matter how highly tuned your hearing.  I hope it's nothing worse than a surprise, and I hope it doesn't happen to me either when I don't look enough.  I'm glad Jaded and a few of you have accepted this is the case.

Yup, tick that off as a win and move on to the next campaign.  ;)
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #164 on: March 20, 2010, 09:02:11 am »
I am not looking forward to the ubiquitous electric car. And no, I shouldn't have to spend my entire time on the bike swivelling my head round like Linda Blair, thank you.

This is what gives away that you know you don't look enough.

I'm not trying to win anything, btw.  I know there are times when I don't look enough either.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #165 on: March 20, 2010, 09:31:09 am »
No, that puts into your head the thought that I don't look enough.

There's a difference between what goes on inside your head and what I do/wish to do.

But I"ll let you win, just so there's no hard feelings.  ;)
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Hummers

  • It is all about the taste.
Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #166 on: March 20, 2010, 09:47:14 am »
Damn.

That's my expenses put off for another day.

Thanks everyone.  :thumbsup:

H

Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #167 on: March 20, 2010, 09:58:39 am »
You're right, it's hard to tell what you actually do in reality, but your comments do suggest there's reason to look more closely.  You've got the video camera, why not get a mate to film you?  It'd be nice to see some straight quiet sections, as well as busier urban traffic with a number of junctions and traffic interactions.

I'll be nice about your riding, though you may not want to brave the wolf pack here.   ;D


Depends on the location, doesn't it. And if you have ears.

And this doesn't suggest that you compensate for not looking by using your hearing?

p.s. again, there's no winning, and no hard feelings regardless.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

plug

Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #168 on: March 20, 2010, 10:07:45 am »
I can report to the jury that I have seen Jaded looking.

Biggsy

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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #169 on: March 20, 2010, 10:29:14 am »
Biggsy, passing wide and quietly is no guarantee of not startling anyone either, in my experience it gives perhaps a similar chance of surprise.  Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, just as with calling out your presence.  I didn't get in his personal space.

I've been mildly surprised when passed wide, but not seriously startled.  Certainly, the more space your give a cyclist, the less startling it is for them.
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Biggsy

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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #170 on: March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 am »
so you shouldn't punish them for it.
"Quick, there's a POB  flagrantly flouting the advice given in Cyclecraft and by CTUK....

....somebody call.....


........ Wendy"


(lol)



Remember when you asked me to point out when you're being a childish bell-end?

It's time.

Not really.  It was a pertinent remark in a comedy dressing!
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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #171 on: March 20, 2010, 10:57:15 am »
I can report to the jury that I have seen Jaded looking.

I'm sure he does look, and rides well.  But that's not objective, and he may or may not look enough.  I'd like to see him and/or many of the other riders that feel hearing is essential so we can see when they look, and compare to when they should look based on the situations around them.

Biggsy, I've made quite a few wide and fast passes with a lane of space between us, and still had riders call out "Oh FCUK!!!" in surprise.  They relied on their hearing, and it failed them.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Biggsy

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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #172 on: March 20, 2010, 11:00:25 am »
Come on, you can't deny that the closer you get to someone, the more likely you are to startle them.  So please give people plenty of room when you can.
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Re: Saw someone getting a telling-off tonight
« Reply #173 on: March 20, 2010, 11:01:34 am »
when they should look based on the situations around them.


who determines that then ?