Author Topic: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...  (Read 23424 times)

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2013, 03:33:51 pm »
I come from north of the north.

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2013, 04:07:51 pm »
  In that case, reducing dietary cholesterol might not have much of an effect. 

A GP told me 2 decades ago that trying to reduce cholesterol by diet needed extreme changes, and that no-one knew what, for a given individual, was too high a level.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2013, 04:13:43 pm »
Haven't they stopped talking about levels, and are now more about ratios of good and bad cholesterol

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2013, 08:22:53 pm »
  In that case, reducing dietary cholesterol might not have much of an effect. 

A GP told me 2 decades ago that trying to reduce cholesterol by diet needed extreme changes, and that no-one knew what, for a given individual, was too high a level.

It is about ratios and absolute levels.

I have made extreme changes and achieved success.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2013, 09:37:43 am »
Found the thing about northerners having naturally high cholesterol.  Vitamin D (lack whereof causes rickets) is produced in the skin from a cholesterol precursor in response to sunlight.  The thinking is that in Scandinavia people get so little sunlight and stay covered up so much of the year that high cholesterol-precursor levels, and hence high cholesterol, evolved as a response, heart attack in later life being a better outcome than growing up bandy and unable to fight.

BTW Mrs T42, who is doing a masters in medicinal chemistry, tells me that there may be a causative link between statins and cognitive decline. Win a few, lose a few, I suppose.

PS found this: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/266632.php

Nice to know: since I was put on pravastatin in 2008 my memory has suffered.
Tout à gauche sur le plat

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2013, 12:07:04 pm »
Warning! Biochemistry Geekery Alert!

There's a very interesting talk on YouTube given by Peter Attia (Low-Carb fans know him well, not just as a serial self experimenter, but also a pretty knowledgeable MD) which goes into exquisite detail about Cholesterol:

Clicky

I learned some new things watching it; particularly - don't get hung up on particle sizes, it's just not that simple. Boats & cargo  :thumbsup:.

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2013, 01:15:37 pm »
Most of that just reinforces the importance of the ratios of cholesterol in your blood.

I take issue with point 2 of slide 32. That's bollocks. Absolute bollocks.
Quote
The cholesterol we eat has little to do with the cholesterol in our body.

Genetics affects the cholesterol levels, yes. It is possibly the major factor.  However diet also has an effect. Your body is only made up of what you eat and how it is synthesized. For any single individual they cannot alter their genetics therefore they can only alter environmental factors such as exercise and diet.

I've made dramatically large alterations to the total levels and ratios of cholesterol in my blood. The only thing I've altered is diet.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2013, 01:15:58 pm »
And meanwhile, Mrs T fired this back at me:
http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/news/20060315/statin-withdrawal-hard-on-heart

The import being that if you stop statins after taking them for a long time, not just your LDL rockets but so does C-Reactive Protein, a marker for artery inflammation. Inflamed arteries favour clots. Thromboses, that is.

In other words, see doc talk first.
Tout à gauche sur le plat

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2013, 01:18:40 pm »
And meanwhile, Mrs T fired this back at me:
http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/news/20060315/statin-withdrawal-hard-on-heart

The import being that if you stop statins after taking them for a long time, not just your LDL rockets but so does C-Reactive Protein, a marker for artery inflammation. Inflamed arteries favour clots. Thromboses, that is.

In other words, see doc talk first.

Aye, I'd heard that.

My brother, in Australia, has been put on 'precautionary' statins. Similar cholesterol levels to myself. No major diet changes.

I've hit the diet route, hard, and achieved good results. My MD regards that as more desirable than using statins.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2013, 01:46:31 pm »
I had them slapped on me without comment when I got stented.  There seems to be a standard cocktail of beta-blockers/clopidogrel (aka Plavix)/BP meds/statins for all, and all that varies is the dosage.  Got rid of the BBS and the BP meds in three years after persuading the cardiac bunch to try me without and I've been arguing for years about the sudden decline in my mental acuity, but I've long since realised that they prefer the patients dumb.

Did you notice the bit about cataracts? Got those too.
Tout à gauche sur le plat

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2013, 02:00:24 pm »
I've made dramatically large alterations to the total levels and ratios of cholesterol in my blood. The only thing I've altered is diet.

You're one data point.

My Dad did that diet thing-cut out all saturated fats and it made absolutely no difference.

Perhaps in the absence of dairy, you're (for example) eating more nuts, so it's not the reduction of dairy fat but the addition of mono-unsaturated fats that's changed your readings?

The only thing that is clear is how little we understand the mechanisms and interactions between genetics, diet and exercise and how they affect cholesterol levels. To say nothing of whether high cholesterol, in and of itself is the death knell we've been told.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2013, 02:23:22 pm »
The only thing that is clear is how little we understand the mechanisms and interactions between genetics, diet and exercise and how they affect cholesterol levels. To say nothing of whether high cholesterol, in and of itself is the death knell we've been told.

Good point. I was surprised to see the graph in this talk that plotted LDL against %age of patients, for patients actually suffering a cardiac event. Half the events occurred in those with low LDL  :-\.

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2013, 02:27:33 pm »
There's that weird thing they found where if they got people to write love letters, it dropped their cholesterol levels. I can't find it now, but it was very strange.

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2013, 02:30:05 pm »
I've made dramatically large alterations to the total levels and ratios of cholesterol in my blood. The only thing I've altered is diet.
Perhaps in the absence of dairy, you're (for example) eating more nuts, so it's not the reduction of dairy fat but the addition of mono-unsaturated fats that's changed your readings?

Are you actually agreeing with me?

I'm not disputing that it is complex, I'm just disputing the statement about cholesterol in diet having nothing to do with cholesterol in body.

Yes I've done more than just cut out saturated fat. I've eliminated dairy, reduced animal fat intake, increased consumption of foods containing unsaturated oils (including increased consumption of almonds). Drunk more red wine.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2013, 02:30:52 pm »
There's that weird thing they found where if they got people to write love letters, it dropped their cholesterol levels. I can't find it now, but it was very strange.

This One?
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2013, 03:13:21 pm »
Are you actually agreeing with me?

Weeeelllll... yes and no.  ;)

I can't disagree you've lowered your cholesterol, I haven't seen your results, but have no reason to doubt you.

However, if I get diagnosed with high cholesterol I will not be following the diet guidelines you are following. You focus on the 'eliminate dairy' and I just don't think that for most people that's a big factor.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2013, 03:17:36 pm »
This One?

That's the one! I could only find random articles that mentioned it, not the actual paper.

Do you think us writing about how much we like riding bikes on a regular basis is affecting our cholesterol?

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2013, 06:53:03 pm »
I'd be wary of avoiding statins to prevent cognitive decline:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10348491/Statins-may-reduce-dementia-by-a-third.html

If statins do prevent arterial damage then they should protect brain function.

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2013, 09:43:26 pm »
I'd be wary of avoiding statins to prevent cognitive decline:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10348491/Statins-may-reduce-dementia-by-a-third.html

If statins do prevent arterial damage then they should protect brain function.

To the extent of maintaining blood supply, yes, and obviously that is a priority.  However, it appears that certain statins appear to affect memory, while some do not. It would seem sensible to at least ask one's doc on changing from one to another, so that the circulatory benefits are retained.  It may be frying pan into fire, though, since some of them affect muscle performance.
Tout à gauche sur le plat

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2013, 10:24:38 pm »
It may be frying pan into fire, though, since some of them affect muscle performance.
Hmmm, the heart's a muscle....

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2013, 02:51:13 pm »
Well, I do have cholesterol!

Total 5.09
HDL 1.12
Ratio 4.5

BG 4.42. Apparently this is good.

These are after a large high carbohydrate breakfast about 3h previously.

In other news, apparently I’m 2cm taller than I thought. I might check this because it could be an anomalous measurement, and my BMI is thus (if this is correct) lower than I thought, in which case my current 75kg weight is actually spot-on, and my weight back in March of 72kg wasn’t as good.

BP was 135/73 so no major concern there though I’d have preferred the 135 lower, but it’s always higher at the doctor’s.

Overall risk of heart attack in the next 10 years 1.3%.



Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2014, 04:20:59 pm »
Nice neat ratio calculator here: http://www.hughcalc.org/chol-si.php

My results:

Your Total Cholesterol/HDL ratio is: 3.22 - (preferably under 5.0, ideally under 3.5) IDEAL
Your HDL/LDL ratio is: 0.528 - (preferably over 0.3, ideally over 0.4) IDEAL
Your triglycerides/HDL ratio is: 1.599 - (preferably under 4, ideally under 2) IDEAL



Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2015, 11:16:08 am »
Went to see the doc, apparently my cholesterol is 7, and he wants me on statins immediately. Naturally not trusting doctors, I shall go vegan for a week, ramp up the exercise, try meditation and see if that can have an effect.

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2015, 11:28:24 am »
You'll need more than a week.

Mine was higher than that. I did a major diet change, dropped all dairy, upped intake of 'good' fats instead. Was already getting lots of aerobic exercise.

Dropped total cholesterol level a bit, substantially altered the ratio. No statins required.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Cholesterol and all that gubbins...
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2015, 11:22:30 am »
I think the best way forward is to completely reduce intake of ‘bad’ fats, and partially reduce intake of ‘good’ fats. Resulting in an overall ceasation of polysaturates and monosaturates; and an overall reduction of polyunsaturates and monounsaturates.

To complement this, a large reduction in simple carbohydrates and a small reduction in complex carbohydrates.

A continuation of essential aminos and non-essential aminos resulting in a 40, 50, 10 balance of Protein, Carbohydrate and Fats to constitute the Basal Metabolic Rate plus extra for deliberate exercise such as cycling.

 :thumbsup: