Author Topic: Southend Cycle Town - part 2  (Read 144916 times)

Clandy

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #175 on: April 09, 2010, 05:53:30 pm »

Clandy

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #176 on: April 09, 2010, 06:57:20 pm »
It's spreading. Story is now on Southend Radio's Facebook page. with the usual comments about road tax from motorists: Nicht unterstüzter Browser | Facebook

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #177 on: April 09, 2010, 07:11:31 pm »
I don't do facebook (and it took me ages to get my browser to show the comments).

If anybody does have the ability to update the comments, then @ the people talking about costing the tax payer money, the money for that lane hasn't come from Southend council taxpayers but as specific funding toward the scheme from central government (which means all taxpayers) - or so we were told at the council meeting.

edit - is there a way to get a permanent link to that section of comments?  I don't want to write in an email "it's on facebook somewhere"

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #178 on: April 09, 2010, 11:45:13 pm »
Interesting she has had time to Twitter on Tuesday, but can't answer her emails.
Cyclesouthend doesn't seem to have a facebook page. But if you follow nutty's link above you get to A Waste of spaceite's blog.

I believe that her blog is seasidenews ?

Oh dear, the RSS feed of local news has just put this onto her site
Quote
# Southend seafront cycle lane ‘not safe’ April 9, 2010
A NEW seafront cycle lane is an “accident waiting to happen” according to worried cyclists.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #179 on: April 10, 2010, 01:56:27 am »
Is anybody a member of this website?
Cycle paths and palm trees create Southend 'Riviera' | road.cc | The website for pedal powered people: Road cycling, commuting, leisure cycling and racing

I see they published the Council's January press release, and there is opportunity to add comment to it.   I'm not a roadie so am out of my depth there, but do we have any roadie cyclists here that also are registered there?

FatBloke

  • I come from a land up over!
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #180 on: April 10, 2010, 07:50:35 am »
... do we have any roadie cyclists here that also are registered there?
I think I am (was).
This isn't just a thousand to one shot. This is a professional blood sport. It can happen to you. And it can happen again.

Clandy

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #181 on: April 10, 2010, 08:20:41 am »
Is anybody a member of this website?
Cycle paths and palm trees create Southend 'Riviera' | road.cc | The website for pedal powered people: Road cycling, commuting, leisure cycling and racing

I see they published the Council's January press release, and there is opportunity to add comment to it.   I'm not a roadie so am out of my depth there, but do we have any roadie cyclists here that also are registered there?

Interesting last comment in the story:

"Simon Patterson, chairman of the Southend Sea Front Traders’ Association, said he welcomed the spruce-up: “Anything to smarten up the seafront is great.

“The cycle track is in line with what they’re trying to do to create a greener environment to encourage people to cycle, so that’s a good thing.

I can see the new parking bays working a lot better than they do now.

“The traffic will be eased, because people won’t have to reverse park any more, and it will make parking quicker.”"



Erm… no.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #182 on: April 10, 2010, 10:05:40 am »
So were the traders misled about the plans then?

And how come they got to see them when the Cycle Group that the Council set up specifically for this were denied access to the plans.

FatBloke

  • I come from a land up over!
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #183 on: April 10, 2010, 10:35:56 am »
So were the traders misled about the plans then?

And how come they got to see them when the Cycle Group that the Council set up specifically for this were denied access to the plans.
Probably for the same reason that the cycling DAY was cancelled after an hour last year after lobbying from the traders. MONEY!!    >:(
This isn't just a thousand to one shot. This is a professional blood sport. It can happen to you. And it can happen again.

Clandy

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #184 on: April 10, 2010, 03:17:46 pm »
Was out for a ride this morning and noticed the series of very short cycle lanes in Tattersall Gardens, Hadleigh. SBC seem to like doing pointless things for cyclists:


Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #185 on: April 10, 2010, 03:21:06 pm »
Was out for a ride this morning and noticed the series of very short cycle lanes in Tattersall Gardens, Hadleigh. SBC seem to like doing pointless things for cyclists:
They just want us in the gutter or better still not cycling at all!

Meanwhile the comments keep coming.
Southend seafront cycle lane ‘not safe’ (From Echo)
Council’s slant on Southend seafront parking is confusing drivers (From Echo)

Clandy

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #186 on: April 10, 2010, 05:46:19 pm »
I have just received a reply to my (several) emails:


Dear Mr ******
Please see the officers response below which I trust addresses your concerns.
Anna Waite
Cllr Anna Waite, Southend Borough Council


 

 
-----Original Message-----


From: Mehmet Mazhar
To: CllrWaite; Zulfiqar Ali
Sent: Wed Apr 07 16:07:40 2010
Subject: RE: New cycle path west of Southend pier. SERIOUS safety concerns. [Virus Control Checked]

Dear Anna,

Please find my draft reply to Mr ******'s email below. Unfortunately my system cannot see his  address. Could you forward it to me please so that I may send him the reply, or alternatively forward it on please. Thank you.


Dear Mr ******,
Thank you for your email and for bringing your concerns to our attention. I apologise for the delay in replying to you.
Before replying to each of your points in turn, I would like to emphasise the new cycle route along the Western Esplanade is still under construction and has not been formally opened. Although some cyclists including you are using the track there are a number of features that have yet to be installed before the scheme goes ‘live’, in particular road markings and signage. Once the scheme is completed in its entirety, between the Pier and Chalkwell Avenue, there will be a formal opening ceremony and the enforcement of the traffic regulations will then commence. This will deal with a large proportion of your concerns. However, I will now reply to each of your points in turn:
1.      As I have stated, the cycle track is still under construction. At the edge of the finished path there will be a raised rib white line, which will be 20mm in height. This will divert cyclist away from the edge of carriageway. It should also be noted that vehicles are now moving through the area at reduced speeds as the recent changes have brought in a natural traffic calming effect as a by-product of the scheme.
2.      The kerb, which has an upstand and raised line, would in the first instance deflect and errant drivers back onto the carriageway and in the second instance alert them that they have strayed from their path via the ‘rumble’ effect the raised line would provide. It should also be noted that this scenario could occur on any pavement. Some footways in the borough have a lesser upstand than the new cycle track due to years of carriageway resurfacing.
3.      The edge of the cycle lane raised rib line will be moved in a little at this point to ensure that there is an adequate buffer zone between the edge of the cycle track and the edge of the parking area. Our parking enforcement service will be advised that vehicles which park outside the bay will be issued with Parking Charge Notices (PCN), as a deterrent.
4.       Once the scheme is formally opened, the parking regulations will be enforced. The yellow line waiting restrictions apply to the back of footway, therefore any vehicles parking on the cycle track or the promenade may receive a PCN.
5.      There will be marking on the cycle track, which will clearly identify it as a two-way cycle track, not for pedestrian use. Pedestrians currently cross the road between the parking area and the Esplanade. All road users, including cyclists and pedestrians are required to exercise due care and attention to themselves and other road users. In reality most pedestrians will probably wait until cyclists have passed, before crossing.

 I would like to thank you for the video link you provided. It’s encouraging to see that cyclists are already using and enjoying the new cycle track, even in its unfinished state. Once it is fully complete, I have no doubt that it will be a much used and enjoyed facility by the community.

The introduction of a dedicated two-way cycle track along the Western Esplanade is a positive approach to the issue of providing a combined off-road leisure and commuter route, which reallocates road space within existing constraints and provides extra width to cater for the many cyclists that ride on the promenade and along the Western Esplanade.

The approach that we have adopted in the design of this cycle route is similar in many ways to two-way and contra-flow cycle lanes in towns and cities across Europe (e.g. Copenhagen and Stockholm), where the only delineation between motorists and cyclists is a standard kerb. Some of these schemes are considered best practice and as a Cycling Demonstration Town this is what we also aspire to.
Having said this, I would like to assure you we have taken your concerns seriously and I would like to reassure you that and that as part of our design processes we monitoring this scheme after its implementation, to ensure that it is successful. At the same time as the scheme is formally opened we will be offering training and advice to cyclists by our trained team of cycling officers.

In the meantime, if you have any further queries regarding this matter please do not hesitate to contact me.





Kind regards,

Mehmet

Mehmet Mazhar
Interim Group Manager
Traffic and Highways



So it looks to me like they are putting all their trust in painted markings to prevent injuries.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #187 on: April 10, 2010, 05:54:51 pm »
I saw the first cyclist fall off there last night.

ok it was "only" a young child with stabilisers with the usual incident of too much weight on the left stabiliser and then turning across the camber of the path resulting in gravity winning, but it happened (and the kid bounced ok).

I can see the "raised white line" having a similar effect.  There's one along the centre of the path beside Canvey Lake to differentiate the pedestrian and cyclist sides.  I was along there in the rain once, with pedestrians on the cyclist side.  When I went to cross the line my wheels just slid sideways along it and the bike started falling over.

FatBloke

  • I come from a land up over!
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #188 on: April 10, 2010, 06:00:05 pm »
Point 3. So the cycle path will be narrower than 2.5m?   :o

WTF is Mehmet Mazhar?   ???
This isn't just a thousand to one shot. This is a professional blood sport. It can happen to you. And it can happen again.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #189 on: April 10, 2010, 06:02:07 pm »
Domestique picked up on that from the plans several pages ago.  We raised the narrow lane at the cycle group meeting.

2.5m minus the 0.5m for line minus the 0.2m for the kerb upstand equals 1.8m usable width.

Do keep up at the back there  :P

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #190 on: April 10, 2010, 06:05:21 pm »
So as well as the ribbed white line there is also going to be a ribbed line on the low kerb?
Are they issuing PCN now for motor vehicles parking on the path now? (the eastern side)
How can they make it not for ped. use? My understanding of bike lanes is that peds can walk on them and have right of way over bikes, am I wrong?

So much like Copenhagen I wish I had Woolly with me to translate.  ::-)

I can see the "raised white line" having a similar effect.  There's one along the centre of the path beside Canvey Lake to differentiate the pedestrian and cyclist sides.
Similar to the lane around the records office in Chelmsford?
Clicky

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #191 on: April 10, 2010, 06:08:42 pm »
...
The approach that we have adopted in the design of this cycle route is similar in many ways to two-way and contra-flow cycle lanes in towns and cities across Europe (e.g. Copenhagen and Stockholm), where the only delineation between motorists and cyclists is a standard kerb. Some of these schemes are considered best practice and as a Cycling Demonstration Town this is what we also aspire to.
...

The big difference there though is that they make the cycle lanes WIDE as per best practice.  They also avoid reducing the carriageway running width to be in the critical zone that puts road cyclists at risk, as mentioned some pages ago.

I have cycled good examples of these lanes.

FatBloke

  • I come from a land up over!
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #192 on: April 10, 2010, 06:08:54 pm »
Sorry! But it's only fair to point out, as you were at the meeting, that Domestique wasn't there!!  Domestique is a gurl!!!

Keep up at the front there!   :smug:

Anyhow, it would appear that SBC might have been telling porkies to Cycling England!  
This isn't just a thousand to one shot. This is a professional blood sport. It can happen to you. And it can happen again.

Clandy

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #193 on: April 10, 2010, 06:11:14 pm »
What did SBC tell Cycling England?

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #194 on: April 10, 2010, 06:13:37 pm »
...
I can see the "raised white line" having a similar effect.  There's one along the centre of the path beside Canvey Lake to differentiate the pedestrian and cyclist sides.
Similar to the lane around the records office in Chelmsford?
Clicky

From memory the Chelmsford lines are just painted on the ground.  The Canvey one is a domed painted line around an inch thick in the centre (the 20mm referred to in the response above?).  Trying to cycle over it at an angle in the wet is nigh on impossible since the tyres just slide along it instead of gripping and riding up and over.

The problem with that is that the wheels don't go over the line but the cyclist does... at which point the bike becomes unbalanced and lays down.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #195 on: April 10, 2010, 06:22:04 pm »
2.5m minus the 0.5m for line minus the 0.2m for the kerb upstand equals 1.8m usable width.
This needs to be highlighted

1.8 metres in total! Not 1.8m eastbound and another 1.8m westbound.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #196 on: April 10, 2010, 06:26:32 pm »
2.5m minus the 0.5m for line minus the 0.2m for the kerb upstand equals 1.8m usable width.
This needs to be highlighted

1.8 metres in total! Not 1.8m eastbound and another 1.8m westbound.

Please be clear about this.  Don't be vague.

It's 0.9m eastbound and 0.9m westbound.

If there is a central divider lane painted (I'm not certain about that at present) then that will further reduce the widths!



If there is to be a formal opening ceremony I do hope families attend.  Aren't the child trailers 1m in width?  :demon: :demon: :demon:

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #197 on: April 10, 2010, 06:41:21 pm »
It's 0.9m eastbound and 0.9m westbound.
If there is a central divider lane painted (I'm not certain about that at present) then that will further reduce the widths!

If there is to be a formal opening ceremony I do hope families attend.  Aren't the child trailers 1m in width?  :demon: :demon: :demon:
My bent is 52cm wide! How much wobble room does the law allow?

We will never know until it's over when the lane is "officially" open.  ::-)

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #198 on: April 10, 2010, 06:41:26 pm »
Also now the clowncil are planting palm trees along the edge of the cycle path, the original kerb stones, there will be extra costs involved if the need ever arises to increase the width of the path. There is no space to increase the width towards the road.
Why not plant the palm trees on the otherside of the footpath and not next to the cycle path.

Quote
Aren't the child trailers 1m in width?

I saw two bikes towing trailers attempt to pass each other on the Eastern path a few days ago. There was space to get past but it was an almost stopped situation to do it.

2_Flat_Erics

  • 2 Flat Eric's
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #199 on: April 10, 2010, 07:05:01 pm »
Quote
My bent is 52cm wide! How much wobble room does the law allow?

I have never been able to find any legal requirements for the width of cycle paths. There are plenty of guide lines but not legal minimums.

In general it seems that most recomendations are for 1.5m bare minimum, 2m where possible and 2.5m where there is a heavy flow of bikes. These measurements are for one way so double them for a two way path.



As for Southends Path meeting the same design standards as similar paths in Copenhagen and Stockholme..... well I doubt it somehow. I will eat my hat if SBC hasnt just taken a few of the Copenhagen design specs that suit them ignored the ones that don't.
Never argue with an idot....
They just bring you down to their level
then win on experience.

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