Author Topic: Southend Cycle Town - part 2  (Read 110218 times)

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2010, 08:55:05 pm »
It's not as bad as others  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Leatherhead, thanks to Kathy --->  Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket
(Please reply to the thread here ----> Cycle lanes of Leatherhead

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2010, 09:12:10 pm »
I cycled home along here tonight.  The cones have gone and the new paint is starting to go down.  The central island car parking bays are being angled to make it easier for drivers to pull in.

1) The new lane markings are so narrow that drivers have to straddle them and the parking bays to pass an on-carriageway cyclist (I have been assured by the council that the lanes will remain wide enough for commuting/racing cyclists to remain on the carriageway).  Tonight there were no parked cars, so it was safe... what will happen when there are parked cars?

2) I've realised that a driver reversing from the bays cannot see easily, so we'll continue to see the current state of affairs of drivers leaving the bays and the passing motorists hitting the brakes/swerving.  They'll swerve onto the cycle lane won't they  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2010, 06:23:36 am »
Quote
They'll swerve onto the cycle lane won't they   

The reason for a 50mm drop kerb, seems like its nothing to do with cycling to me >:(

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2010, 03:53:11 pm »
I have now received a copy of the drawings in preparation for Monday's meeting.

I don't know which of these best expresses my feelings. 
 :hand:    >:(     :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:



In the OP you'll see a link to streetview, which shows parked cars, and my photo from the same location without parking bays.  You'll also see a photo of a car separated from the cycle lane by a "0.5m buffer" (their words).

The plans show that the car parking spaces will return, with a 0.5m buffer.

Where the cycle path goes in front of the casino there is no buffer zone at all.  Each week as I commute along here I often see a car dropping off passengers or a taxi picking them up.  Will these cars park on the cycle path, or immediately alongside it in the carriageway?

Would anybody be willing to open a book for me on the date of the first dooring incident when a passenger opens the door into the cycle path?


Where the scheme passes the casino the carriageway width marked on the plan is 3.25m.
LTN2/08 table 2.3


So despite my comments that this is a commuter route and cyclists will prefer the road over the path, and despite the project manager assuring me that the road would be wide enough for cyclists to remain on-carriageway... they're painting a lane NARROWER than required for 20mph traffic.  >:( >:( >:(




And don't start me on about the rest of these plans  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2010, 03:58:20 pm »
I have now received a copy of the drawings in preparation for Monday's meeting.

I don't know which of these best expresses my feelings.  
 :hand:    >:(     :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:



In the OP you'll see a link to streetview, which shows parked cars, and my photo from the same location without parking bays.  You'll also see a photo of a car separated from the cycle lane by a "0.5m buffer" (their words).

The plans show that the car parking spaces will return, with a 0.5m buffer.

Where the cycle path goes in front of the casino there is no buffer zone at all.  Each week as I commute along here I often see a car dropping off passengers or a taxi picking them up.  Will these cars park on the cycle path, or immediately alongside it in the carriageway?

Would anybody be willing to open a book for me on the date of the first dooring incident when a passenger opens the door into the cycle path?


Where the scheme passes the casino the carriageway width marked on the plan is 3.25m.
LTN2/08 table 2.3


So despite my comments that this is a commuter route and cyclists will prefer the road over the path, and despite the project manager assuring me that the road would be wide enough for cyclists to remain on-carriageway... they're painting a lane NARROWER than required for 20mph traffic.  >:( >:( >:(




And don't start me on about the rest of these plans  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

As an experiment, it might be worth the CTC trying to get someone involved who could cause some problems for the council.  Off the top of my head:

DfT direct or via your MP,
RoSPA
Health and Safety Executive
Motor Insurer's Bureau or similar trade association (accidents mean payouts mean less profit for their members)
Police traffic department

I don't think there's scope to JR road layout decisions but if the project went through the planning process it would be.

There's a strong suspicion in my mind that schemes like this are designed to spend ringfenced money on creating miles of cycle lane that tick a  performance indicator box for the local authority on which further funding relies.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2010, 03:59:22 pm »
I think I've lost the plot a little. This lane is a two way lane like the Thorpe Bay section? Is the cliff side of the road losing its cycle lane?

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2010, 04:37:22 pm »
Yes it's "two way lane like the Thorpe Bay section".  But unlike that there is no physical separation from the traffic.

From my local knowledge, although I don't often cycle the seafront in an easterly direction, the current east bound cycle lane stops at the arches cafes (before Shorefield Road) and doesn't reappear until the two way dedicated lane at the old gasworks jetty (now demolished).

The plans show that the east bound cycle lane stops at the arches and reappears** as a two way dedicated lane on the new bit of tarmac installed between the existing pavement and the old carriageway/parking bays.  The parking bays have been skewed to the diagonal to try to both cater for this intrusion into the carriageway as well as make it easier for motorists to enter them*.

The dedicated two way cycle path then continues  from Shorefield Road to the Three Shells by Simon Lwhatever's radio station.  At this point the easterly lane has a "Turn Right" arrow in it, which points it at the track that goes south of the Adventure Island playground and under the pier.  

Fortunately for my blood pressure the plans run out at this point, before passing under the pier, as last time I walked that way there wasn't enough headroom for pedestrians, let alone cyclists!






* getting out will be hard thanks to the blind spots...


** i.e. a cyclist dismount and WALK over the zebra crossing?

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2010, 07:12:03 am »
So if I have got this right, the cycle lane from the casino, heading east, will have the prominade to the right, and parked cars to the left?
How will they stop cars parking right up against the kerb?
Then the route crosses the prominade and heads off under the pier, an area that has always had problems with flooding.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2010, 08:04:40 am »
The north side of the road is being narrowed to 3.3m to accommodate the slanted parking bays in the centre. What I haven't seen on the plans are cycle stands. They have built a path for families to cycle on but haven't included somewhere to park them when they want to visit the cafes, arcades, or beaches.

I shall use the lane, at least once, to see how it is but I'm not hopeful that I'll ever use more than a couple of times!

Edit: Just back from a pootle along the seafront, from Chalkwell and into Barling, and back. The section under the pier is closed. I hope it's closed for height adjustment because at the moment there is only four feet from floor to ceiling! No evidence of extra cycle parking, yet.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2010, 08:47:30 pm »
1) So if I have got this right, the cycle lane from the casino, heading east, will have the prominade to the right, and parked cars to the left?
2) How will they stop cars parking right up against the kerb?
3) Then the route crosses the prominade and heads off under the pier, an area that has always had problems with flooding.


I've forwarded you a copy of the plans.

Re your three points (numbered by me)
1) Yes you're right.  Pedestrians will be crossing the cycle lane to get to their parked cars.  Beach leisure equipment and picnics will be unloaded from the cars onto the cycle lane.  Doors will be opened into the lane.

2) They can't.  They'll have to hope that motorists will park in the marked bays and not against the kerb to avoid the wing mirrors being clipped by passing motorists (after all, many motorists in the residential areas park up on the kerb so that they're away from the passing traffic...)

3)  Yup  :facepalm:

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2010, 10:47:16 pm »
Also the 2.5 meter two way cycle lane isnt really 2.5 meters its 2 meters. That looks like a solid line 0.5m into the lane from the drop kerb  :-\

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2010, 11:10:51 pm »
I took the line to represent the flush dropped kerb width.  The 2.5m commented on above is my measurements of the on-site construction including the width of that flush kerb.

I have already noted to ask the meeting whether there will be additional painting etc on the path.

I have already noted that of the 2.5m on-site the southern 0.2m cannot be used due to pedal strike on the pavement (as noted in LTN2/08 etc) and that you can't get too far north if travelling east since your handlebars will strike the oncoming vehicles AND you run a risk of overhanging HGV mirrors striking you in the head.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2010, 10:11:17 am »
Quote
I have already noted to ask the meeting whether there will be additional painting etc on the path.

I presume you may have seen this, in ref to Dia. 1012.1  
About halfway down, part 2
The Traffic Signs (Amendment) Regulations and General Directions 2005

Another concern is the width of these lines, although they show 2.5m width on the plans, the width is pointed to the inside of the line(drop kerb), so thats not 2.5m at all, more like 2.4m.
Doesnt sound like much, but that could be a 2.5m loses 0.5m then a further 0.2m pedal strike plus 0.15m line width depending on which side of the drop kerb the measurement is taken from.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2010, 10:56:43 am »
The Cycling Towns schemes are administered and funded by Cycling England aren't they?
Why not contact them? I was at a meeting a couple of weeks ago and there was a guy from CE presenting data about their first few year's experience.
It was very impressive (if you've never been to one of their "Cycling Towns").

However, it seems the obvious contact point for advice.
The Institute of Advanced Motorists might also be a less obvious route, since they seem supportive of cycling at present.

FatBloke

  • I come from a land up over!
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2010, 11:16:33 am »
The Cycling Towns schemes are administered and funded by Cycling England aren't they?
Why not contact them?

I have written to Cycling England and Sustrans (this route is part of NCN16) to express my disbelief, dismay and suspicions about this particular farcility.
This isn't just a thousand to one shot. This is a professional blood sport. It can happen to you. And it can happen again.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2010, 07:01:00 pm »
Can I have the collective help of the forummers please?

A pretty good example of a "hybrid cycle lane" that I loved riding along was in Stanley Park, Vancouver.
streetview

You'll note there that in general the cycle path is hugely wide, as is the pavement, and it's properly segregated from the road.

I also recall two signs that were in common use.  Can you find them on streetview?

One was "Faster cyclists please use the road"

The other was "motorists, when overtaking cyclists please change lane".



I want these to take to the Council's meeting tomorrow night.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2010, 09:28:12 pm »
Google Maps

That says "Motorists Yield to Cyclists"
Quote from: Kim
Paging Diver300.  Diver300 to the GSM Trimphone, please...

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2010, 10:12:08 pm »
Google Maps

That says "Motorists Yield to Cyclists"

Good start! 

Not one I remember, but one worth bookmarking.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2010, 10:27:53 pm »
Can I have the collective help of the forummers please?


You mean you want some examples of good cycle routes?


Can I tempt you with some hen's teeth, or perhaps a yeti's pogo stick instead?

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2010, 10:57:08 pm »
Can I have the collective help of the forummers please?


You mean you want some examples of good cycle routes?


Can I tempt you with some hen's teeth, or perhaps a yeti's pogo stick instead?

I was hoping more for a large number of eyes trawling the streetview in the hope of spotting the signs I remembered.




I've just spotted this though, which reminded me of something.   That path is not only much wider than Southend's... it's ONE WAY!

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2010, 11:10:29 pm »
Finally. Here's an example of my memory.

link

Top sign seems to say
15km/h max speed
Cyclists yield to pedestrians
Faster cyclists use <splurdge>   (I recall <splurdge> being "road")

Second sign down seems to say it's a one way route; and for skaters and cyclists to not reverse direction.  Bear in mind this is much wider than the new Southend scheme!

Next sign down seems to be something to do with dogs.

And last, we have a cyclist in casual clothes and without helmet  :thumbsup:

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2010, 06:33:48 pm »
I will not be there tonight, I am knackered  :(

Good luck tonight

FatBloke

  • I come from a land up over!
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2010, 10:22:14 pm »
2 and a half hours of banging my head against a brick wall. Bloody engineer just could not or would not see why the cycle lane is dangerous saying that it had passed a safety audit. Twat. I nearly lost my rag.  >:(
This isn't just a thousand to one shot. This is a professional blood sport. It can happen to you. And it can happen again.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2010, 10:54:40 pm »
2 and a half hours of banging my head against a brick wall. Bloody engineer just could not or would not see why the cycle lane is dangerous saying that it had passed a safety audit. Twat. I nearly lost my rag.  >:(

So ask who performed the audit, what qualifications they have and if they have, and then invite them to ride the farcility with you whilst you talk them through the hazards.  :demon:

I'm sure you could arrange a demonstration by Nutty of a accident occurring (opening a parked car door into his path, left hook at a junction ....)

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2010, 12:19:22 am »
2 and a half hours of banging my head against a brick wall. Bloody engineer just could not or would not see why the cycle lane is dangerous saying that it had passed a safety audit. Twat. I nearly lost my rag.  >:(

But don't forget that he's a qualified engineer and got rather cross when I picked up the design guidelines (e.g. LTN2/08) that the Council had brought to the meeting and turned to section 8.5.2.  He knows his subject and didn't need me passing him paperwork.

Also don't forget that not only has it passed a safety audit but that in his opinion the scheme will work very well.

Plus, as they took great care in explaining, it's the best compromise that will satisfy everybody  :facepalm:.  It's nothing like those of us who took part in the route inspections remembered being proposed... but those schemes were costed highly so they've put this in as the best solution.

The engineer couldn't see any problem with commuting cyclists using the road.  It's now reduced to a 3.25m wide lane... this is what Cycling England have to say on lane widths (page 8.)
Quote
Critical Narrow Section 2.75 m - 3.5 m
Cars are unable to overtake cyclists with adequate clearance but some motorists
will still attempt it, even at the bottom of the width range. Lane widths between
2.75m and 3.25m should be avoided in most cases (see text).




Pass me the prozac please.  :facepalm: