Author Topic: Southend Cycle Town - part 2  (Read 110300 times)

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2010, 01:11:33 am »
I want to cry.

Looking for something else brought me to this streetview scene.

Look at how wide the lane is.

I'm not really a fan of cycle lanes, but there's plenty of width there for one, on BOTH the east* and west carriageways.

Alternatively, being a seafront promenade, why not just make that wide pavement a shared use one?  ("City** Beach" will be all shared use between the Pier and the Kursaal).


Mind you :)  at least the police are making sure this cycle lane can't be used by pulling somebody over onto it.
silly clicky



* the west carriageway is in the original link, the eastbound carriageway is here (linky) but obviously photographed at a different time as all the parking bays are empty.

** Since when was Southend a city?  I thought we had to have a cathedral to be a city?

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2010, 03:06:41 am »
More thoughts (I can't sleep).

Project manager mentioned how important it is to get as many people cycling as possible.  He said that the more people that are cycling the safer it becomes, and the more that motorists get used to negotiating cyclists safely.

This is correct, so I asked him why they were constructing this Western Esplanade scheme which gets cyclists off of the road :demon:.  He said he'd tackle that point later on the actual agenda item for this scheme, but it wasn't brought up again as we looked at the schemes informally with everybody and were then asked to email our comments in.



The other point he made was that in lots of areas they're ripping out segregated pavement schemes and replacing them with shared use, because that encourages more responsible cycling and reduces conflict (e.g. when a pedestrian meanders into the cycle lane without looking).

Why then are they creating a segregated scheme here?  What's wrong with learning from other people's mistakes and starting with the best practice? 

Gandalf

  • Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2010, 06:34:41 am »
2 and a half hours of banging my head against a brick wall. Bloody engineer just could not or would not see why the cycle lane is dangerous saying that it had passed a safety audit. Twat. I nearly lost my rag.  >:(

So ask who performed the audit, what qualifications they have and if they have, and then invite them to ride the farcility with you whilst you talk them through the hazards.  :demon:

I'm sure you could arrange a demonstration by Nutty of a accident occurring (opening a parked car door into his path, left hook at a junction ....)


I wonder how many miles he cycled last year, say to the nearest thousand.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2010, 02:47:30 pm »
...

For additional thoughts, the carriageway here floods in heavy rain.  

...

They say they're sorted out the flooding problem by changing the surface levels.

I went down there at lunch time, after some rainfall.    The road surface and pavement had dried out by the time I got there.  There were puddles on the cycle track.

FatBloke

  • I come from a land up over!
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2010, 04:13:29 pm »
...

For additional thoughts, the carriageway here floods in heavy rain.  

...

They say they're sorted out the flooding problem by changing the surface levels.

I went down there at lunch time, after some rainfall.    The road surface and pavement had dried out by the time I got there.  There were puddles on the cycle track.
I refuse to used the Eastern Esplanade section of National Canal Network 16 when it's raining for that reason!
This isn't just a thousand to one shot. This is a professional blood sport. It can happen to you. And it can happen again.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2010, 04:27:41 pm »
National Canal Network

Love it  ;D

They wanted some help with publicity for their cycle town project, does anybody know where we can get a 1.9m wide canal boat?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

2_Flat_Erics

  • 2 Flat Eric's
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #56 on: March 30, 2010, 04:55:45 pm »
I have been lurking around this forum for a while now and felt it was time to stop lurking and start posting.

I attended the cycle forum meeting for the first time last night and wanted to add my tuppence worth too the debate.

One thing that struck me last night was that all of the plans we saw are all now pretty much cast in stone and I can’t see the council changing anything. The representatives from the council did say that copies of the plans would be sent to everyone for them to look at in more detail and then email comments back. As most of the projects are already well underway it seems a little late. I will send my comments back to them but I won’t hold my breath.

When nuttycyclist pointed out that the recommended minimum width for a two way cycle lane is 3.5m the engineer was very quick to respond that he was fully aware of that recommendation. If the engineers were fully aware of the recommendation then why have they gone ahead and totally ignored it?

Whilst looking at the Western Esplanade plan I asked the engineer about an additional line shown on the path that is shown at 0.5m from the kerbstones. He confirmed that this is a solid white line. So what started out as an undersized 2.5m path will be marked out as only having lanes of 1m. Oh and in the wet that white line is going to be like an ice rink.

As for city beach, my own experience of shared space is that it does work well but only when the foot and cycle traffic are at low densities. Even in Holland where they use a lot of shared space they restrict cycling in some busy high streets. During the summer when the shared space gets busy it is going to be almost impossible to do anything other than weave around at a snail’s pace (fine for a 5 year old on their first bike but not for most day to day cycling).

Whilst everyone was looking at and discussing the plans I also raised some questions regarding ASL’s with the engineer. I asked him to confirm how long he felt the lead in lanes should be (I already knew what the answer should be) he confirmed that they should be as long as the expected traffic queue at peak times and a minimum of 30m. After he confirmed this I asked him why the lead in to A13westbound junction with Hamlet Court was only 6 inches.... yes 6 inches not meters or feet... 6 inches... and A13eastbound junction with Milton road is only about 2 meters. The response was that they did not want to encourage cyclists to position themselves in the wrong place in the road so in some cases have reduced (or virtually removed) the lead in. Now to me this is an admission that they have realised that the lead in lanes were put in the wrong place to start with and rather than move them or add a second lead in they have simply reduced them to the point where they are useless.

I understand that the project manager who attended last night is new to the post and wants to put in place a proper consultation process. If the new process is followed and they actually listen then it does seem very positive, but having read of some of the past experiences with the council I again will not hold my breath.
Never argue with an idot....
They just bring you down to their level
then win on experience.

2 Flat Erics You Tube Channel

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #57 on: March 30, 2010, 05:12:59 pm »
...
Whilst everyone was looking at and discussing the plans I also raised some questions regarding ASL’s with the engineer. I asked him to confirm how long he felt the lead in lanes should be (I already knew what the answer should be) he confirmed that they should be as long as the expected traffic queue at peak times and a minimum of 30m. After he confirmed this I asked him why the lead in to A13westbound junction with Hamlet Court was only 6 inches.... yes 6 inches not meters or feet... 6 inches... and A13eastbound junction with Milton road is only about 2 meters. The response was that they did not want to encourage cyclists to position themselves in the wrong place in the road so in some cases have reduced (or virtually removed) the lead in. Now to me this is an admission that they have realised that the lead in lanes were put in the wrong place to start with and rather than move them or add a second lead in they have simply reduced them to the point where they are useless.
...

The original lanes were much longer, but have now been painted out.  This was because they were to the left of the turn left lane.


Southend Cycle Town



That picture also shows quite clearly how their choice of paint colour doesn't show up in all lighting conditions.  A driving colleague thought that it "was a funny colour tarmac pothole repair".


Welcome to the forum (and apologies for not saying hello, I guessed who you were but I was too busy banging my head against a brick wall to be polite).

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2010, 05:20:01 pm »
Nutty ^ you must have one of the only pictures in existance that shows traffic not entering the pre-painted ASL whilst waiting for the traffic signals  :o :o


Welcome 2_Flat_Erics  :thumbsup:


Clandy

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2010, 05:56:04 pm »
Hi, I'm new to this forum and also a regular Southend cyclist, based in Shoebury. . I was directed here from a similar discussion on the CTC Forums. I ride the seafront regularly and can only add my dismay at the appalling design of the new seafront cycle path. Motorists already regularly park in the eastern cycle path even though there are high kerbs separating it from the road. Here is an example recorded last Sunday morning:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/TDNH7wTFbHg&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/TDNH7wTFbHg&rel=1</a>

I have been emailing the councillor responsible for Roads and Traffic (and also planning btw), Cllr Anna Waite. I have yet to receive a reply.

My suggestion to all is to keep emailing Cllr Waite directly, clearly describing the potential for serious casualties this new lane represents, and pointing out to her that as Cllr for Roads and Traffic she will be held solely responsible for any accidents.
As she has received numerous warnings of the dangers inherent in this design, she cannot absolve herself from responsibility.


I rode along the new stretch today. It currently looks like this.






It seems to me cycling east on this path is not going to be an option for anyone who does not want to take the risk of being doored, or running into people loading/unloading cars.


Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2010, 05:59:33 pm »
Do you have a link to the thread on CTC forums?

I have now put all my objections, raised in Monday's meeting, down on paper and emailed them to the project.

The final paragraph was
Quote
On a final note, you asked for help and ideas in promoting the Cycle Town Project.  As a suggestion why not hold a cycle ride to open this new cycle track?  Please can I suggest that the design team along with several councillors such as Cllr Lamb and Cllr Waite ride in a group from Chalkwell to the pier.  If you can let me know the dates and times that this will take place I will be there on a cycle at the same time.

If anybody hears that this inaugural ride is to take place, please let me know.  I'm suggesting a forum ride in the opposite direction  :demon:

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2010, 06:04:02 pm »
If anybody hears that this inaugural ride is to take place, please let me know.  I'm suggesting a forum ride in the opposite direction  :demon:
No!  :hand:
It should be the same direction but on the other side of the road. Do a U turn at  Woodgrange/Kursaal RAB and back along the road to pass They on the east bound cycle path.  ;D

Clandy

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2010, 06:07:31 pm »
The CTC thread is here: CTC Forum &bull; Information

\Maybe there should be a matching Southend Critical Mass event...

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2010, 06:14:53 pm »
Also looking at the latest pictures shouldnt that be a solid white line, rather than a dashed one, to mark the edge of the road. Or is the solid line that is going to be painted 0.5m into the cyclepath going to be the edge of the road.
Btw I am up for the grand open day ride, its a great idea

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2010, 06:28:23 pm »
I think they are short chevrons for a door zone!  :facepalm:


edit: back to the OP, does anybody know what the "event" is supposed to be? I can't seem to find anything on the SoS website.

2_Flat_Erics

  • 2 Flat Eric's
Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2010, 07:13:30 pm »
The plans show this line as Diag 1010. The TSRGD http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2002/20023113.htm state that this is an "edge of carrigeway" marking but also states it is for use across side roads, laybys driveways etc. As a dashed line a vehicle is permitted to cross it.

The first solid white line (that a driver is not permitted to cross) is shown on the plans at 0.5m inside the cycle path.

Even if the council tries to enforce the door zone by ticketing someone for parking beyond the dashed line then the "Michael Freemans" of this world will soon get the tickets quashed.


I think it has already been said before, but we should have a book open for the date of the first door V cyclist incident.


Ohh, and I am definately up for an opening day ride ;)
Never argue with an idot....
They just bring you down to their level
then win on experience.

2 Flat Erics You Tube Channel

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2010, 07:20:22 pm »
As well as a book on the first dooring there should be a book for the first car passenger tripping on the kerb and falling into the lane and another book on a passenger/ped/cyclist slipping on the as yet to be painted line and falling into lane or onto a parked or parking car.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2010, 07:47:23 pm »
I think they are short chevrons for a door zone!  :facepalm:


edit: back to the OP, does anybody know what the "event" is supposed to be? I can't seem to find anything on the SoS website.

I rode the motorbike home along here tonight.  It had been raining.  We were going into the setting sun.

All drivers were driving over the parking bays because we couldn't see the lines  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ::-)


Del, yes these are the door zone markings.  Please can anybody let me know of a vehicle which has 0.5m wide doors :facepalm:

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2010, 07:49:55 pm »
Well I saw a first tonight - it was what we have predicted.

Cyclist was using the new track to head west.

Car pulled onto track in front of them and parked outside Casino.

Cyclist hopped down into carriageway to pass the car.

Cyclist could not get back onto cycle track because of kerb.

Queue built up behind cyclist as each car slowed and then forced their way past whilst giving the cyclist no room at all.  (I was on a motorbike so could give cyclist plenty of room).

Clandy

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2010, 08:14:26 pm »
How many Southend cyclists are there on this and other boards? Maybe we could just happen to all be cycling the seafront at the same time… (no organisers for the council to target).

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2010, 08:26:54 pm »
Unfortunately on a darker note, are there not recorded instances of incapacitated motorists being confused at night by oncoming lights to their left which results in them swerving left to correct their misperception?
This arrangement would seem to provide all the cues necessary: no street furniture providing a visual boundary on the left, a hatched divide that could be misconstrued as a central division, a wide footpath that could appear as a carriageway, a large central division that could be perceived as the road edge on the right and oncoming cyclists as fodder.
A world of bedlam trapped inside a small cyclist.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2010, 07:54:32 am »
Del, yes these are the door zone markings.  Please can anybody let me know of a vehicle which has 0.5m wide doors :facepalm:
Noddy's car is quite small.  ::-)


Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2010, 10:02:48 am »
How many Southend cyclists are there on this and other boards? Maybe we could just happen to all be cycling the seafront at the same time… (no organisers for the council to target).

There are a few locals on here.

I haven't had the time to trawl other boards to try to work out whether they have other local cyclists, or even if those local cyclists have an issue with this scheme.

Do you have any contacts? (pm me if you prefer).   Does anybody know what the feelings towards this new path is amongst other local cycle groups (Wheelers, fortyplus, etc)?  I've simply taken the collective view of everybody I've so far spoken to and expressed our joint concerns to the Council.

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2010, 10:11:31 am »
Unfortunately on a darker note, are there not recorded instances of incapacitated motorists being confused at night by oncoming lights to their left which results in them swerving left to correct their misperception?

Yes.  Cumbria I believe.  I was trying to find reference the other day but couldn't.  From memory it was a few years ago and the driver claimed to think he was on the wrong side of the road and swerved through the group of oncoming cyclists.  I recall there was one death, one amputated leg, and possibly a second injury of similar size.

This arrangement would seem to provide all the cues necessary: no street furniture providing a visual boundary on the left, a hatched divide that could be misconstrued as a central division, a wide footpath that could appear as a carriageway, a large central division that could be perceived as the road edge on the right and oncoming cyclists as fodder.

Indeed.  Motorcycling home last night was really strange.  Going through the parking bays, on the same line I've used for as long as I can remember, was fine as we couldn't really see the bays.  However once we got to the end of the bays we were suddenly on a hatched area with a solid line coming in from the right (it's where the new single lane moves left after the bays near the speed camera to allow for the central bays).  I could expect to see people swerving left at that point...

Also, as per lots of other areas, when lines are moved/repainted, the old lines still show up in some conditions...  e.g. just look at Belton Way!  Dusk/rain/etc and the black painted out lines are as white and shiny as the new lines.

Clandy

Re: Southend Cycle Town - part 2
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2010, 10:41:43 am »

Do you have any contacts? (pm me if you prefer).   Does anybody know what the feelings towards this new path is amongst other local cycle groups (Wheelers, fortyplus, etc)?  I've simply taken the collective view of everybody I've so far spoken to and expressed our joint concerns to the Council.

I don't have any contacts, I prefer riding solo. You may have seen me about, I'm the guy on the grey Moulton (I also sometimes ride a blue Eddy Merckx).

Regarding driver behaviour in Southend: Following being knocked down by Smidsy in Nov 2008 I have found a great tool in video recording my rides. If something happens I have it on record, if not I delete the files.