Author Topic: Timekeeping question.  (Read 1503 times)

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Timekeeping question.
« on: August 14, 2010, 05:56:11 pm »

At a time trial, being timed on a couple of cheap Texco value digital stopwatches, the rider crosses the line and the stopwatch reads 1h 21mins 15secs.

What time should be recorded on the time sheet?

There was a difference of opinion between myself and somebody else (with a different watch - I was using a printing Seiko thing) as to the correct way of doing this and we ended up with our times differing by 1 sec for most of the riders (2 for one).


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mattc

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Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 06:00:14 pm »
You;ve lost me - you write down the time displayed.

LATER you can subtract the start times to give the riders' elapsed times.

Are the two watches showing different times? Surely you need to resolve that - is that what you are asking about?

Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 06:17:51 pm »
You;ve lost me - you write down the time displayed.

LATER you can subtract the start times to give the riders' elapsed times.

Are the two watches showing different times? Surely you need to resolve that - is that what you are asking about?

Watches show the same time.

Is that spoken from a position of authority or 'common sense'?

What time are you actually reporting?

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

mattc

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Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2010, 06:30:08 pm »
I have been trained:

you write down what you see. I think it is "local custom" as to whether you report that time or the "calculated time" - of course this depends on having someone to report to! I've had a 2nd column to write the calc'd time in.

If you're the one writing the times on the board, you clearly have to do the subtraction - but you should really do that later, to reduce errors.

(this is all for club TTs - it's possible that Opens have a more tightly defined procedure, but I would expect the same principles.)

i still don't understand where a 1 SECOND difference comes from  :-\
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2010, 06:51:26 pm »
That is interesting. You are recording the time on the watch which is *less* than the time the rider has taken.

Reductio ad absurdum: Imagine your watch records whole hours. A rider does 59:59. Do you record 0 time? Is that time faster or slower than a time recorded in minutes?

We were trained that you can never give a rider a faster time than they have ridden. If the clock reads 25:25 as they cross the line then giving them that time (25:25) implies 25:25.00, which is faster than they have actually ridden, so you should give them the time of 25:26 (implying 25:26.00).

Any time you get should be read as 'in a time not more than' rather than 'in a time not less than'.

..d

Ah.. Just found the printed training materials:

Quote
Road and off road racing are timed to the next whole second. e.g. If the time on the watch shows 58.01 seconds the time will be given as 59 seconds. 58 seconds would be a faster time than the rider has actually ridden

I would suggest then that whoever trained you was wrong (given that I have no reason to disbelieve Jock Shaw).

"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

mattc

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Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2010, 12:20:36 pm »
 :facepalm:

We're talking about very diffferent things, I believe! You're talking about the issue of fractions of second, and whether to round up or down. My misunderstanding ...

TBH I just did what the other timekeeper was doing - it didn't seem an issue at the time. In club events noone will complain about 0.5 of a second. There was more difference between the reaction times of the veteran and myself! (And IMHO consistency is the most important thing i.e. who went fastest, not their exact time.)

If I remember I'll try to get a proper answer for you, but don't hold your breath, sorry ...
Excellent, an expert has appeared! You learn something every day ( i was probably told this and then forgot  ::-) )



[I'm glad Audax ignores all these issues ... :) ]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 12:34:31 pm »
Most watches used by CTT timekeepers have a split function which stops the time of each rider to the nearest 10th or 100th of a second which should then be rounded up to the next full second (or 1/10th second in hillclimbs).There is a guidance note for timekeepers on the CTT website.

andygates

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Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2010, 12:10:34 pm »
With two timekeepers, operator error is more likely than chronometer error.  Even with a tesco watch.
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Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 04:12:42 pm »
Not if they know their job.We have 8 timekeepers at the MRC 24!

Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2010, 04:16:58 pm »
Not if they know their job.We have 8 timekeepers at the MRC 24!

But they can be two miles from where the rider finishes at 24 hours.

andygates

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Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2010, 04:18:33 pm »
Not if they know their job.We have 8 timekeepers at the MRC 24!

That smacks of redundanacy.  How do they all get a clear view?  ;)

It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2010, 11:24:57 pm »
Not if they know their job.We have 8 timekeepers at the MRC 24!

That smacks of redundanacy.  How do they all get a clear view?  ;)



Maybe they are timing different areas or working in shifts?

Don't think my SCU regs cover 24h races.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

mattc

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Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2010, 11:33:08 pm »
David:
As the laps are upto 40 miles long, and riders can be on 2 different circuits, I believe that is the correct answer.

But I suspect you knew that, and/or Andy did :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2010, 11:38:40 pm »
David:
As the laps are upto 40 miles long, and riders can be on 2 different circuits, I believe that is the correct answer.

But I suspect you knew that, and/or Andy did :)

I suspected, but did not know.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2010, 04:49:16 pm »
Not if they know their job.We have 8 timekeepers at the MRC 24!

That smacks of redundanacy.  How do they all get a clear view?  ;)



Maybe they are timing different areas or working in shifts?

Don't think my SCU regs cover 24h races.

..d

The eight timekeepers are situated at intervals of about 2 miles around the finishing circuit. We can't know where the rider will be when 24 hours have elapsed, so the riders continue to ride until 24 hours have elapsed, the time they pass the next timekeeper is recorded and the point they were at at 24 hours is calculated from their average between the last two timekeepers. So the rider can still have up to 2 miles left to ride when they have ridden for 24 hours. 12 Hours are the same. It's a very complex business keeping track of riders on a 24, as the number of times circuits are ridden varies to keep the field together. Problems arise if riders stop for periods equating to the times they were lapping the circuits, that doesn't happen with the top riders, who never stop for long.

Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2010, 04:55:31 pm »
I find it helps to shout your number very loudly just before crossing the line, as most timekeepers will stop the watch when they hear the shout  ;)
Never tell me the odds.

Re: Timekeeping question.
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2010, 06:14:22 pm »
Shouting your number is very helpful for the timekeeper,not from the point of view of getting the time accurate but for the correct identification of the rider whose number may be obscured,folded over or flapping.This is the biggest problem in a 24hr event where darkness,rain, extra clothing and musettes contribute to the difficulty for the checkers/marshalls who need to record who has been where and when.