Author Topic: SPAUDAX  (Read 28897 times)

Martin

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #125 on: 22 April, 2010, 11:03:53 pm »
*** Save The AUK Website ***

It's perfect as it is!

+1

I'd much rather have the "this is what we do; this is where you can do it, this is how you can do it and how much it will cost" no nonsense approach than those bloody sportive websites;

 full of pictures of the TdF and natty slogans to advertise a 100km ride around eg Mid Sussex for £20-30; organised by somebody who doesn't even want to tell you who he is

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #126 on: 22 April, 2010, 11:28:05 pm »
*** Save The AUK Website ***

It's perfect as it is!

+1

I'd much rather have the "this is what we do; this is where you can do it, this is how you can do it and how much it will cost" no nonsense approach than those bloody sportive websites;

 full of pictures of the TdF and natty slogans to advertise a 100km ride around eg Mid Sussex for £20-30; organised by somebody who doesn't even want to tell you who he is

 ;D
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #127 on: 24 April, 2010, 12:03:34 am »
I suppose that, if you wanted to change the site to expand entries (and I accept that not everyone does), you'd think about people new to Audax. They might be Googling on (say) "cycle challenge rides in Buckinghamshire".

The Audax site doesn't do well on that kind of search, because:

  • It doesn't mention bikes or cycling much :-\
  • The framed layout means that the blue bar title isn't prominent, and that doesn't usually mention bikes or cycling either

I'm not convinced at all that a major redesign is needed. I'd just suggest thinking about whether the frames are essential (they are deprecated for good reason these days), and asking whether someone coming straight to a calendar page from Google would even know that they were looking at a cycle event (which might mean some wording changes).

The title at the top of your screen in the blue bar is the most important single thing, and should mention "long distance cycling" for the home page, and "cycling event" and the broad location for each calendar page. Prominent links to a friendly "what is Audax" page might be good.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #128 on: 24 April, 2010, 10:43:12 am »
If we are talking about getting more people to ride Audax, then two things need to be considered:

1) Can the current organisers cope/do they want to cope with many more riders
2) Some other point I cannot remember.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #129 on: 24 April, 2010, 08:26:24 pm »
If we are talking about getting more people to ride Audax, then two things need to be considered:

1) Can the current organisers cope/do they want to cope with many more riders
2) Some other point I cannot remember.

A few days ago, Francis said that many organisers like the 'small beer' approach and don't seem to want more. I can't find the post now so apologies if I have got the wrong idea of if it's been retracted. I haven't heard any organisers worry too much about the promotion of their event. There are 10 or so organisers in my club, some relatively large scale (200 or so rides over 2 events on the same day), some small (<20 riders). They seem to cut their cloth according to their means.

Martin

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #130 on: 24 April, 2010, 09:02:56 pm »
it's not just a "small beer" approach; many of us are running long standing events because we have a loyal band of riders who know exactly what they are getting for their entry fee and are happy to come and ride year after year with no frills; just some good food and drink en route.

Audax pretty much runs for free, riders who have come from other more commercial events have to remember that events only exist due to the mostly (give or take a few beers or a meal out as thanks) unpaid volunteers that enable AUK events to go ahead, and treat them accordingly.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #131 on: 24 April, 2010, 10:04:46 pm »
As long as we're sure that new riders are coming in to replace those who retire or drift away, then numbers are not everything. On the other hand, a lot of people are missing out :)

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #132 on: 24 April, 2010, 11:36:51 pm »
If we are talking about getting more people to ride Audax, then two things need to be considered:

1) Can the current organisers cope/do they want to cope with many more riders
2) Some other point I cannot remember.

A few days ago, Francis said that many organisers like the 'small beer' approach and don't seem to want more. I can't find the post now so apologies if I have got the wrong idea of if it's been retracted. I haven't heard any organisers worry too much about the promotion of their event. There are 10 or so organisers in my club, some relatively large scale (200 or so rides over 2 events on the same day), some small (<20 riders). They seem to cut their cloth according to their means.

So if you have organised an event with controls that can cope with 40 people, you would be very happy with 200 registering 5 days before the event?

Granted a control further down the line can cope with more people because of the red shift, but extra publicising means either more events or radically changed events. Having queued for 20 mins at a control on the 2nd busiest Audax of last year (LEL excepted) I can say that cloth cutting needs to be done very carefully.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #133 on: 24 April, 2010, 11:57:34 pm »
If we are talking about getting more people to ride Audax, then two things need to be considered:

1) Can the current organisers cope/do they want to cope with many more riders
2) Some other point I cannot remember.

A few days ago, Francis said that many organisers like the 'small beer' approach and don't seem to want more. I can't find the post now so apologies if I have got the wrong idea of if it's been retracted. I haven't heard any organisers worry too much about the promotion of their event. There are 10 or so organisers in my club, some relatively large scale (200 or so rides over 2 events on the same day), some small (<20 riders). They seem to cut their cloth according to their means.

So if you have organised an event with controls that can cope with 40 people, you would be very happy with 200 registering 5 days before the event?

Granted a control further down the line can cope with more people because of the red shift, but extra publicising means either more events or radically changed events. Having queued for 20 mins at a control on the 2nd busiest Audax of last year (LEL excepted) I can say that cloth cutting needs to be done very carefully.

I can't answer your question on behalf of the organisers I am afraid. I am not an organiser.

I know for sure that one organiser changed the start control location based the number of entries. Most events have a limit on the number of entrants anyway.  So the organiser who  "organised an event with controls that can cope with 40 people" would surely set his limit at 40.


Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #134 on: 25 April, 2010, 12:00:03 am »
So - (back to my original point  ::-) ) you need more events then.

Which ones do you organise?
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #135 on: 25 April, 2010, 12:01:23 am »
So - (back to my original point  ::-) ) you need more events then.

Which ones do you organise?



Which part of "I am not an organiser" do you fail to understand ?


who needs more events ? why ?

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #136 on: 25 April, 2010, 12:04:40 am »
to your original point, The organisers of the events I have done seemed to be able to cope.  I don't know if they want more entries, you'll have to ask them. I already said I have heard none asking for suggestions on how they can attract more.  The orgs in my ciub are not in it for the money. If they get a small number of entries they'll use their own or someone elses home as a start/ finish control to save hiring hall.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #137 on: 25 April, 2010, 12:07:04 am »

Which part of "I am not an organiser" do you fail to understand ?



Oh, I understand all of it. Do you?
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #138 on: 25 April, 2010, 12:09:38 am »
So - (back to my original point  ::-) ) you need more events then.

Which ones do you organise?
if you mean which events are organised by members of my club, they are, off the top of my head and some may not be being run this year

Winter Solstice
Wigginton 100
Wigginton 300
Buttys Brid Trip (not on in 2010)
Spring Into The Dales
Leap Into The Aire
Brimham Rocks
Wetherby 100
The Three Coasts
The Other Three Coasts
East & West Coast
The Lincoln
The Border Raid
Spurn Head
The Old 240
Gerrys Autumn Brevet
Fountains Monk'y Business
Mother Shiptons
The Hartside
Aldborough Feast Grimpeur
Season of Mists
Mellow Fruitfulness

Not all are promoted by VC167, some are promoted under the name of the organisers CTC group.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #139 on: 26 April, 2010, 08:04:35 am »
So if you have organised an event with controls that can cope with 40 people, you would be very happy with 200 registering 5 days before the event?

Granted a control further down the line can cope with more people because of the red shift, but extra publicising means either more events or radically changed events. Having queued for 20 mins at a control on the 2nd busiest Audax of last year (LEL excepted) I can say that cloth cutting needs to be done very carefully.
[red shift - good term!]

I think this just illustrates my view (and many others) that smaller events are fine, and what Audax is good at. Who WOULD want their entry jumping 40->240 5 days before? (Most "succesful" sportives sell out 3 months ahead, so THEY don't have that problem!)

The only times I've Q-ed for food:
- A 600 in PBP year - the large entry was doing us all a favour. And I could have bought food before that 1st control.
- PBP. Several thousand riders. You see, scale brings problems. Again, if I hadn't wanted a "proper" meal I could probably have looked after myself.
- There must have been another time, but clearly too rare to note!

I've NEVER Q-ed long just to get my brevet stamped => I have never queued to control!*

[*please forgive audax use of this verb :) ]

it's not just a "small beer" approach; many of us are running long standing events because we have a loyal band of riders who know exactly what they are getting for their entry fee and are happy to come and ride year after year with no frills; just some good food and drink en route.
Martin,
IMHO, the expression "small beer" is not in itself a criticism. If I do not want a large beer, a Small Beer is perfect!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #140 on: 26 April, 2010, 01:40:34 pm »
Lots of events, and small fields, seems to be the way AUK has evolved so presumably it works, on some level or another.

When I first joined there were far fewer events - maybe 50 in a year - and 100 starters was 'normal'.  The organisers were more 'organised' and the events far more event-like, with village hall intermediate control points and 'event staff' controllers with rubber stamps* at the ready.  The only known commercial controls were Little Chef, which featured on several of the longer events and ISTR that AUK members were issued with a Little Chef national map, as part of the membership package.  Queues at early controls were quite common.  Events that were basically 1-person operations were unheard of, and in fact would have been loudly criticised and prevented from re-running.

* well - potato-cuts were not unknown, and sculpted wine corks quite common.

I know really good events of this type still exist, but for some of us (depending on where you live I expect) they seem to be lost in the noise of up to 7 or 8 smaller rides clashing on the same day, or up to 15 in a single weekend.  No wonder entries are much smaller now, and Organisers with less money up-front have just downscaled to basic-style events.

As I said before, it seems to work for Organisers but its not so good from the riders' point of view.  Rolling along in a big bunch of 30 or more just isn't as common as it used to be - of course road and traffic conditions have changed as well.  Even those who prefer to ride alone would still like to feel the buzz at controls.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #141 on: 26 April, 2010, 01:51:31 pm »
I agree that the 'buzz' of a big field is a nice thing. And controls with real people and home-made food are always nice. (personally I'd welcome big bunches - drivers can feck off and join a queue of 30 cars if they prefer it).

But:
- 100 riders is peanuts compared to the sportives that folks rave about. And we have about the same number of AUK kms ridden as in the old days (I think - don't we?)
- The choice we have now is good; my guess is that we're now driving much smaller distances to do events.

Not sure what point I was trying to make ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

dasmoth

  • Techno-optimist
Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #142 on: 26 April, 2010, 01:58:12 pm »
I know really good events of this type still exist, but for some of us (depending on where you live I expect) they seem to be lost in the noise of up to 7 or 8 smaller rides clashing on the same day, or up to 15 in a single weekend.  No wonder entries are much smaller now, and Organisers with less money up-front have just downscaled to basic-style events.

As I said before, it seems to work for Organisers but its not so good from the riders' point of view.  Rolling along in a big bunch of 30 or more just isn't as common as it used to be - of course road and traffic conditions have changed as well.  Even those who prefer to ride alone would still like to feel the buzz at controls.

As a newcomer, perhaps I shouldn't be commenting on this, but doesn't a calendar like that translate into a lot of travel time for anyone who wants to ride more than a handful of events per year?  I'm not altogether sure I'd have got into audax were it not for the good range of events on offer within ~an hour's drive (and better yet, a few that are just an easy spin on the bike).

I'm also led to believe that the winter calendar was very sparse until quite recently.
Half term's when the traffic becomes mysteriously less bad for a week.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #143 on: 26 April, 2010, 03:20:12 pm »
I agree that the 'buzz' of a big field is a nice thing. And controls with real people and home-made food are always nice. (personally I'd welcome big bunches - drivers can feck off and join a queue of 30 cars if they prefer it).

But:
- 100 riders is peanuts compared to the sportives that folks rave about. And we have about the same number of AUK kms ridden as in the old days (I think - don't we?)
- The choice we have now is good; my guess is that we're now driving much smaller distances to do events.

Not sure what point I was trying to make ...
I take a slightly different view.  I'm not fond of big bunches, and prefer to ride in a group of two or three.  Of course, larger fields do not necessarily mean big bunches, except at the start, but do provide rather more opportunities for small groups to form.  The thought of a 500-strong (or more) sportive field horrifies me.

So the current trend for fields of 25 - 50 suits me quite well.  And I think it must suit the organisers of these events as well, else I am sure they would drop off the calendar.

I'm sure there are many differences between audaxing 20 years ago and now.  I have only been doing it for seven years, during which time the format has changed little.  The format is clearly reasonably successful, as it is continuously drawing in new participants.  I find the lack of overlap between participants in audax and sportives surprising (but then, I don't do both either).

I can't really add much to the comments about organisers.  The event I run (Upper Thames) always attracts an above-average number of entries (70 plus every year).  Whether that is because of the lack of other BR events in November, or the route, or the catering, I really don't know.  I just try to make sure everyone has a good day out, and a pleasant venue to linger in at the end.

Euan Uzami

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #144 on: 26 April, 2010, 06:40:42 pm »
Of course one thing that would increase an audax's ability to cope with more people would be to have parallel controls. There are many many towns and villages dotted all over the place that have got more than one caff - so you just say you EITHER go to this control, OR , this other one. Take your pick, one or the other out of two that are located in the same (or neighbouring) town.
The only time I've ever been to a control that couldn't cope was one of the peak district ones last year but it was a beautiful sunny day so all the locals had come out for a walk and stopped there as well. They were queuing out the door, but there were shops in a nearby town so effectively what i'm suggesting effected itself naturally, it's just the card-stamping that gets done in just the one place currently.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #145 on: 26 April, 2010, 10:15:02 pm »
When I first joined there were far fewer events - maybe 50 in a year - and 100 starters was 'normal'.  The organisers were more 'organised' and the events far more event-like, with village hall intermediate control points and 'event staff' controllers with rubber stamps* at the ready.  The only known commercial controls were Little Chef, which featured on several of the longer events and ISTR that AUK members were issued with a Little Chef national map, as part of the membership package.  Queues at early controls were quite common.  Events that were basically 1-person operations were unheard of, and in fact would have been loudly criticised and prevented from re-running.
....

I agree. I think that most AUK events have lost a sense of occasion. I remember my forst 600 in 1992, the Windsor Chester with it's 3 starting points.
There were commercial controls, but I still remember the atmosphere at the Raven Cafe (south of Whitchurch) as well as at the turn. Dave Poutney's Kidderminster control was great. These were controls run by expereinced long distance cyclists who knew how to get newcomers like me back on the road again and ready for the next slog.
There's a lot to be said for the night before an event in a village hall. Waiting for riders to turn up for the sleepover before the early morning start and the social side of Audax.
That's one of the reasons I like the idea of people cycling to and from events instead of driving. People who drive to events tend to remove the need of the overnight stay before the ride. Nowadays, people drive to the start, ride the event then drive home ASAP. The social side is dying. It's not just in AUK, but in all cycling. In the old days everyone socialised at the finish then cycled home together socially.
The Bryan Chapman stands out as a good old style event. PBP is king of all, the route is nothing worth bothering with, the only reason I ride is for the atmosphere and sense of occasion that is becoming ever more rare in cycling.

Euan Uzami

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #146 on: 26 April, 2010, 10:48:57 pm »
I agree. I think that most AUK events have lost a sense of occasion. I remember my forst 600 in 1992, the Windsor Chester with it's 3 starting points.
There were commercial controls, but I still remember the atmosphere at the Raven Cafe (south of Whitchurch) as well as at the turn. Dave Poutney's Kidderminster control was great. These were controls run by expereinced long distance cyclists who knew how to get newcomers like me back on the road again and ready for the next slog.
There's a lot to be said for the night before an event in a village hall. Waiting for riders to turn up for the sleepover before the early morning start and the social side of Audax.
That's one of the reasons I like the idea of people cycling to and from events instead of driving. People who drive to events tend to remove the need of the overnight stay before the ride. Nowadays, people drive to the start, ride the event then drive home ASAP. The social side is dying. It's not just in AUK, but in all cycling. In the old days everyone socialised at the finish then cycled home together socially.
The Bryan Chapman stands out as a good old style event. PBP is king of all, the route is nothing worth bothering with, the only reason I ride is for the atmosphere and sense of occasion that is becoming ever more rare in cycling.

I agree with your point about trying to ride to an event instead of driving to it.
I try and get the train to as many events as possible, just because I find it more "wholesome", but it makes the end of the event hanging around in the hall drinking tea much more like something to be savoured if the temptation to dive into your nice comfy car isn't there.
I don't like driving more than an hour or two before cycling, simply because driving makes me feel tired, and I really don't like driving to an audax, riding it, and then driving back all in the same day. even the alfreton ones i did last year that are only an hour away knackered me.

But, imho, there's a simple reason why people don't tend to cycle together socially, and that's not necessarily that they're unsociable buggers but just the fundamental fact that people cycle at different speeds, and unless they've explicitly decided to cycle together, then they are likely to drift apart purely based on different speeds. There are exceptions, of course, and obviously sometimes people do tend to explicitly decide to cycle together, e.g. if they've met beforehand/know each other outside of the event.
The only time I've conciously 'buddied-up' with someone on an audax was when we noticed that we did actually appear to be cycling at the same speed anyway, so might as well wait for each other in the short stoppage times.
On audaxes, even though I'm normally riding on my own, I'm normally meeting and chatting to other people doing the audax in the controls, and that's the social side of audax that I like about it. Rather than sportives, where people are all barging each other out of the way to bollock as many flapjaks and severed-bananas down their gullet in as short a space of time as possible in order to hare off again.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #147 on: 26 April, 2010, 11:12:27 pm »
But, imho, there's a simple reason why people don't tend to cycle together socially, and that's not necessarily that they're unsociable buggers but just the fundamental fact that people cycle at different speeds, and unless they've explicitly decided to cycle together,

That's what used to happen. In the old days of time trialling, the club used to work around the time trial. The club cycled to the time trial, raced, then rode home together.
It's more of a general thing about cycling and not just Audax.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #148 on: 26 April, 2010, 11:16:28 pm »
Riding together takes some commitment and practice. Simple as that. It's easy enough to slow down a tad so the group can stick together. That's if you realise you are riding off the front, you need to look round and ease off a bit. People don't bother todo this. Audax isn't a club run.

Alot of audaxers are not and have never been club riders and don't know how to do it. It's actually quite unsociable when a bloke you've spent the last few hours with jsut rides off because you need to stop for a puncture or a piss or something.

Re: SPAUDAX
« Reply #149 on: 26 April, 2010, 11:30:09 pm »
Riding together takes some commitment and practice. Simple as that. It's easy enough to slow down a tad so the group can stick together. That's if you realise you are riding off the front, you need to look round and ease off a bit. People don't bother todo this. Audax isn't a club run.

I was thinking more about ridng to and from the event, not the event itself. It's harder for a faster rider to ride with slower riders than it is for them to go at their own pace and I can easily understand why faster riders want to keep moving. Especially on an Audax event, where you're riding a long way.
I'd even say that it's better that everyone does their own thing. You'd all have different stories to tell each other on the way home and also have a bigger idea of what went on during the event from people who were in a different part of the ride as you were at the same time.

Allthough when I've ridden permanets with a group, I often find them more sociable than calendar events. For a start, I'm usualy the only one who knows the route. Plus I plan them here on YACF and I try to match riders and make it clear that we'll need to stay as a group if the ride will work. We have split up, but that's always been intentional and to the advantae of the group as a whole.