Author Topic: How much over-distance is too much?  (Read 5297 times)

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
How much over-distance is too much?
« on: May 06, 2010, 02:54:53 pm »
I'm working on a route for a 200 and I've come up with something I'm quite pleased with, but it adds up to 220km. If I were putting it on as a calendar event (purely a hypothetical question at this stage), would that be considered too much over-distance?

d.

mattc

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Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2010, 02:56:22 pm »
is it 220
- shortest distance, or
- routesheet distance?

(I assume it's BR, not BRM!)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2010, 02:59:21 pm »
You could have the official finish around 200 so that there's less time pressure for slower riders and then provide the overdistance route to get back to the start.
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simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2010, 03:03:02 pm »
You could have the official finish around 200 so that there's less time pressure for slower riders and then provide the overdistance route to get back to the start.

I think people do tend to prefer rides that start and finish in the same place.


Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2010, 03:08:53 pm »
The Mountain Roads of S Wales was run in two versions: 300 and 225k.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2010, 03:11:00 pm »
is it 220
- shortest distance, or
- routesheet distance?

Shortest distance. But routesheet distance would be only slightly longer. Maybe 222km.

The longest 200 I've found on the calendar is 214km, which is quite long enough. But even though it's only an extra 6km, 220 looks like a significantly bigger number - it's an extra 10%!

d.

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2010, 03:12:17 pm »
is it 220
- shortest distance, or
- routesheet distance?

For a DIY then it depends on the answer to Mattc's question. 220km shortest distance between controls isn't a problem as you'll get the appropriate bit of time on top.

220km planned route for a ride that's 200km shortest distance between controls is ok, but not great, for a DIY. My first DIY 200 was 230km due to the route I took but it was nice weather in the summer. On a hard winter's day those extra 20km could mean the difference between 2 points and being out-of-time and getting nothing.

For calendar rides it doesn't matter as long as you advertise it's 220km and not a plain '200'. Some people would be annoyed to enter a 200km ride only to find out there's an extra 10% when they get the routesheet.

The Upper Thames is 213km by routesheet, but it's possible to shave off most of the extra 13km by taking the more direct main roads, but you'd lose out on the great choice of route/roads Phil has made.

Also, for calendar rides, I seem to remember that BRM rides can only be a maximum of 10% over-distance. You can't have a 230km BRM 200. That does mean you can have a 659km BRM 600 though. Eek!
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citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2010, 03:13:07 pm »
You could have the official finish around 200 so that there's less time pressure for slower riders and then provide the overdistance route to get back to the start.

I think people do tend to prefer rides that start and finish in the same place.

I did think of moving the start/finish 8km down the road, but it wouldn't be an entirely satisfactory solution as it would mean missing out the nice little climb I want to put near the end of the ride.  :demon:

d.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2010, 03:23:13 pm »
For calendar rides it doesn't matter as long as you advertise it's 220km and not a plain '200'. Some people would be annoyed to enter a 200km ride only to find out there's an extra 10% when they get the routesheet.

That's a good point. If I did put it on as a calendar event, I would make sure I advertised it properly. But what I'm really wondering is whether when you look at a ride's details in the calendar and see that the 200 is really 220km, would that put you off wanting to ride it? Or does it not matter?

Quote
Also, for calendar rides, I seem to remember that BRM rides can only be a maximum of 10% over-distance.

That's worth knowing. Thanks.

Quote
you can have a 659km BRM 600 though. Eek!

 :o

d.

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2010, 03:27:02 pm »
I'm sure at some point I've done a ride that came in at 219 and it wasn't a big deal because it was a really good route.

Nice little climbs near the end of a ride are almost always silly. Unless you're running it in the middle of summer then a fair number of people won't benefit from the views and have to take it easy on a descent for pothole caution anyway. That just makes it a sadistic little slog for the tired meaning that anyone who isn't that keen on a bit of over distance really isn't going to like it. If the climb really is that good then stick it in at the start when it can be properly appreciated.

Also, it isn't a sting in the tail if everyone does it.

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2010, 03:36:16 pm »
A quick scan of the calendar (easier if you download the Excel spreadsheet version)...

All 200s are 215km or below except:-

Ferryside Fish Foray is 225km (and BRM which is interesting).

All 300s are listed as 312km or under except the summer arrow obviously.

Longest 400 is 417km.

Longest 600 is our friend the BCM (2004 and Classic routes).

Mille Cymru way under 10% overdistance.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2010, 03:38:20 pm »
Nice little climbs near the end of a ride are almost always silly. Unless you're running it in the middle of summer then a fair number of people won't benefit from the views and have to take it easy on a descent for pothole caution anyway. That just makes it a sadistic little slog for the tired

Thanks, that's an interesting thought - if I do ever put this ride on as a calendar event, I'll certainly consider it when deciding whether or not to include the climb.

d.

vorsprung

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Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2010, 03:57:36 pm »
Longest 600 is our friend the BCM (2004 and Classic routes).

But the k&sw 600 seems longer.  It's all in the mind
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Weirdy Biker

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2010, 04:04:34 pm »
BRM I'd feel uncomfortable with anything over 215km (riders have to make up this hour "deficit").

BR I'd be more relaxed about.  Particularly if there was a good reason for it being over-distance (e.g. the route visits a particularly nice part of the country).

If I'm honest, 220km for a calendar event suggest you can trim out some fat.  Info controls are your friend....

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2010, 04:08:18 pm »
I'd suggest - show us what you've got.

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2010, 04:28:47 pm »
I think a ride I did a couple of years ago starting in Cardiff (Gower Getter? Ferryside Fish Foray?) was a 225km 200.  I treated it mentally as a 25km ride to the start with everyone else.

I'd think it would be OK if the weather were good for both the first 20km and the last 20km, if both the first and last 20k were 'pretty', and if I suffered no punctures or other mechanicals in those stretches.  Anything else and I'd resent the extra.  Oh, and I'd also resent it if I were in time at 200km and out at 220.  HTH.

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2010, 04:33:55 pm »
But what I'm really wondering is whether when you look at a ride's details in the calendar and see that the 200 is really 220km, would that put you off wanting to ride it? Or does it not matter?


For me it would depend when in the year it was, how much *I* was up to it, how far from home it is and what else was on that day. The most excellent North West Passage is 10km over, it's in The North West in February and one goes through Rochdale twice. Despite all that it's a super route, worth the extra half hour or so. As Greenbank says though a 220km DIY in midwinter on the Vale of York is just a drag and if an alternative was available it would be used.

A start place and time which is doable by public transport would trump an bang on distance route.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2010, 04:58:51 pm »
ISTM one's attitude towards routes being 10km overdistance is entirely colored by (a) your noobiness and (b) whether you rode to the start, even if only 5k from the local train station....

mattc

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Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2010, 05:06:58 pm »
If you're worried about putting riders off, just manipulate the description:
- DO include    "Mostly gentle climbs ..."
- Do NOT include    "Vicious climb near the finish  ;D "

It's all in the (rider's) mind.

A quick scan of the calendar (easier if you download the Excel spreadsheet version)...

All 200s are 215km or below except:-

Ferryside Fish Foray is 225km (and BRM which is interesting).
I believe the calendar figures can be minimum-twixt-controls, or routesheet.
I would guess the FFF is only 225 on route. But I'm not sure about this!

Riders don't see everything that is behind the scenes.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2010, 05:58:18 pm »
Just a look over the borders, in Belgium routes are usually a bit under distance, in Germany well over distance. As a Dutch organiser the federation (NTFU) rules tell me not to deviate more than 5% from the official route lenght. My BRM's tend to be just a few km overdistance.

thing1

  • aka Joth
    • TandemThings
Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2010, 06:47:59 pm »
A quick scan of the calendar (easier if you download the Excel spreadsheet version)...

All 200s are 215km or below except:-

Ferryside Fish Foray is 225km (and BRM which is interesting).


There's also the claimed distance vs. actual. For example, everyone we spoke to found the 210km Winter Warmer to be a bit further this December (new route). We recorded 219 km.

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2010, 09:59:39 pm »
If you ask 10 people how long a ride was you'll get 12 answers.

Although this will be closer to 22 answers as people have multiple things to measure distance (GPS and cycle computer) that never give the same answers.

I've been known to go on a ride with 4 distance measuring devices: Garmin eTrex GPS (for navigation), Garmin Forerunner 405 GPS (logs HR info as well as track), iPhone (has a GPS although never used whilst riding or for logging), Cateye Velo 8 computer.

The Edge 705 means I've removed my cycle computer and no longer have to carry the Forerunner. Down to 2 at least.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2010, 10:10:45 pm »
BRM I'd feel uncomfortable with anything over 215km (riders have to make up this hour "deficit").

My "Mr. Pickwick's High Summer Meander" is 219km BRM event.

Everyone last year completed it comfortably within time limits.
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Weirdy Biker

Re: How much over-distance is too much?
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2010, 10:33:55 pm »
BRM I'd feel uncomfortable with anything over 215km (riders have to make up this hour "deficit").

My "Mr. Pickwick's High Summer Meander" is 219km BRM event.

Everyone last year completed it comfortably within time limits.

I don't doubt most people would get round 220km in BRM time limits.  But inevitably, for one reason or other, a handful of riders (particularly those not battle hardened) might struggle.  Particularly outside of summer on hillier routes, with a lot of navigation (which south east events tend to have).


As a corollary to my previous response an important thing to do is make it clear the route is over 200km.  I've been on a couple of rides 10% or so over the stated distance (i.e. in the calendar description).  It left a sour taste.