Author Topic: More stuff from Floyd Landis  (Read 8000 times)

Rhys W

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More stuff from Floyd Landis
« on: July 03, 2010, 05:52:53 pm »
This time in great detail, impeccably timed as usual: Wall Street Journal

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2010, 05:57:40 pm »
He's completely lost the plot in a David Icke fashion.
Never tell me the odds.

Rhys W

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Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2010, 11:40:10 pm »
Really? I find this latest outburst, in all it's detail, strangely credible.  ???

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2010, 11:43:59 pm »
Credible?  I have no difficulty believing any of it.

Doping is pretty normal for TdF winners (Landis, Riis, Pantani, Ullrich etc )

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2010, 12:32:31 am »
Sorry I don't find them credible. The French hate Lance with a passion. If a French lab could find test him positive they would. There would have be an incredible conspiracy over seven years if he had been doping and all those test came back clean. Don't like Lance that much personally but Landis is a bitter man hitting out at anyone he can.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 06:59:47 am »
You have to remember that there was no test for epo until recently, and a retrospective test of Armstrong's urine contained it. Prior to this any organised athlete could beat the tests. Landis's comments bring together the various rumours that have been circulating for years.

I also think it highly likely that the huge sum of money that Armstrong donated to the UCI, but subsequently forgot about was not just a mere donation. Landis implies that Armstrong had an inside man giving notice of surprise blood tests.  The AFDL complinednlast year that Armstrong's team were getting preferential treatment in doping controls, such as being given time to do other things before being controlled.

What Landis is saying ties in perfectly with the evidence Kohl gave in regard to how athletes can cheat the controls and even the blood passport.

I think Armstrong will disappear after or even during this tour.


Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2010, 07:42:38 am »
Landis could well be speaking the truth, but the manner of his pronouncements makes him unbelievable following his own doping scandal (sue everyone, write a book about it then admit you were doping anyway).

He just looks like a nutter now.
Never tell me the odds.

Rapples

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2010, 07:49:38 am »
.... but Landis is a bitter man hitting out at anyone he can.
He's bitter because he got caught doing what he knows others are doing and getting away with, as he did when at US Postal.

Landis isn't the only ex-Postal rider to get caught doping, surely that has to be more than a coincidence and, I for one, find his accounts very believable.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2010, 08:33:17 am »
Sitting here I can't think of any very big names who have recently been caught out by testing positive (apart from Landis). Even Millar didn't test positive. He, Basso, Valverde, and Ullrich were all caught by being implicated in doping through discovery of blood bags or products.

That tells you something about dope testing. It only catches the small-fry who don't have the funds to organise themselves.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2010, 11:44:35 am »
Nutrition is taking something that hasn't been banned yet.
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andygates

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Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2010, 01:47:50 pm »
Nutrition goes in through the mouth 'ole, not the needle.  ;)

It's a credible story, but so is a lot of fiction, especially when run through a reporter to create a narrative (fighting that awful house style!). 

Landis has changed his detail so much he's lost all claim of truthfulness IMO.  Pretty story?  Yes.  Compelling evidence?  Not a chance.  Well-timed bitter smear?  Looks a lot like it, hein?
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2010, 02:17:51 pm »

Landis has changed his detail so much he's lost all claim of truthfulness IMO.  Pretty story?  Yes.  Compelling evidence?  Not a chance. 

This time it is a little different, not just another doping saga and Jeff Novitzky who works as a federal agent for the Internal Revenue Service is actively working on the case because of possible fraud offences if US Postal used government sponsor money for buying drugs. It means all those interviewed will be subject to criminal proceedings if they lie during interview. Novitzky headed the Balco drug investigation which ended  some top track athletes careers and put others involved in prison. This investigation is in a completely different league to the  UCI or WADA.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2010, 02:34:46 pm »
This confrontation between Armstrong and Paul Kimmage last year is instructive.

      YouTube
            - Armstrong had a heated discussion with former pro Paul Kimmage.
   

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2010, 05:52:55 pm »
What does it instruct us?

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2010, 06:02:11 pm »
That Kimmage makes a living by stirring up cycling doping stories..... and that Armstrong is a very canny PR operative

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2010, 06:05:45 pm »
We knew that already.

Panoramix

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Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2010, 06:12:46 pm »
Considering the UCI has managed to get the French doping agency sidelined and there were so many stories I am ready to believe that doping is endemic. Doping is not in the interest of the UCI as it lessen their revenues so there is scope for collusion with the well off teams.

He has been caught when he moved to a less "professional" team who didn't know how to handle doping and defend its riders. Amstrong made a very well c oordinated counter offensive each time he's been accused.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2010, 06:21:48 pm »
What does it instruct us?

The moral basis that Armstrong is coming from, doping is neither here nor there for him. Millar gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar, Armstrong can respect his honesty in admitting to it, but at that point he has no less respect for Landis or Basso. Kimmage never reached an accomodation with drugs in the peleton, so he's the perpetual whistle-blower, relying on his moral integrity. Armstrong is quite rightly affronted by Kimmage's careless use of the C word, who can't sympathise with that? I think it shows why Armstrong is such a great 'Patron', he knows what buttons to press and anything he has done in the past is justified in the inspiration it has given to cancer sufferers.
In all I would be happier with a strong division between amateur and Pro riding, and the Olympics for amateurs. I do like the Tour, but I don't expect it to be won on mineral water.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2010, 06:27:07 pm »
I understood Armstrong did take EPO though, as part of his post-cancer rehabilitation therapy (since chemotherapy destroys red blood cells along with many other things).  That was all perfectly legal and above board, since he wasn't competing at the time, nor was he expected to compete again.

EPO doesn't hang around in the blood for very long though, so by the time he started serious training it should have been long gone, as would any performance-enhancing benefits.
Never tell me the odds.

Panoramix

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Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2010, 06:54:24 pm »
In all I would be happier with a strong division between amateur and Pro riding, and the Olympics for amateurs. I do like the Tour, but I don't expect it to be won on mineral water.

There is just too much money to be made in professional sport. With means disproportionate to the controllers', it is possible for them to go through the net. Stop watching it and the tour will become a fair competition!

French sponsors have reduced their commitment to the tour as they realise that French people are loosing interest.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2010, 09:24:28 pm »
I don't think that Armstrong could be said to have betrayed his public, even if he did dope. He is one of the people who have cheated death with the aid of medicine and he's won the Tour de France multiple times as inspiration. There's a different moral connection there than with fans who want their hero to have been 'clean'. The people who feel the greatest connection with Lance don't abhor drugs, they just want them to work. I don't think Lance can ever be 'shamed', which makes him less vulnerable.

LEE

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2010, 10:02:40 pm »
There's so much jealousy of Armstrong that it really stinks.

He's spent a decade fending off constant accusations from the French cycling press (without them providing anything substantive).  Every shamed rider says "Lance does it you know?" (Except they got caught and Armstrong, the most tested athlete in history, didn't).  

Landis tested positive for being a total arse.  Why would I believe Landis?  (He even lied to supporters to get financial support for his appeal despite knowing he was guilty)

Armstrong is accused of being "canny" with his PR or having "coordinated counter-offensives" when he is accused.  What else is he supposed to do?  I have never heard Armstrong saying anything I would describe as offensive, he just comes across as extremely focussed and forthright.

Put up or shut up I say.  Provide the evidence of guilt or sit in silence.

Supposing he's innocent and you witnessed one of the greatest sporting achievements ever.

7 tours! Not even the drug-cheats managed that.

So much jealousy.

Panoramix

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Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2010, 10:17:37 pm »


Put up or shut up I say.  Provide the evidence of guilt or sit in silence.



He's never been caught but he's not above suspicion:

Lance Armstrong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote
In October 2008, the AFLD gave Armstrong the opportunity to have samples taken during the 1998 and 1999 Tours de France retested. Armstrong immediately refused, saying, "the samples have not been maintained properly." Head of AFLD Pierre Bordry stated: "Scientifically there is no problem to analyse these samples - everything is correct" and "If the analysis is clean it would have been very good for him. But he doesn't want to do it and that's his problem."

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2010, 10:55:26 pm »
You have to remember that there was no test for epo until recently, and a retrospective test of Armstrong's urine contained it. Prior to this any organised athlete could beat the tests. Landis's comments bring together the various rumours that have been circulating for years.

What this proves is that the double blind safety systems to ensure testing is anonymous and that the testers have no clue who's samples they are handling. The codes for the samples should be hold only by the national or international sports bodies.

Any idea of having your old samples tested is really risky for an athlete as well. If there is any doubt over the sample storage conditions, the chemistry of the storage bottles, anything really that might throw up a false positive. Why would you take the risk?

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2010, 11:45:11 pm »
There's so much jealousy of Armstrong that it really stinks.

He's spent a decade fending off constant accusations from the French cycling press (without them providing anything sunstantive).  Every shamed rider says "Lance does it you know?" (Except they got caught and Armstrong, the most tested athlete in history, didn't).  

Landis tested positive for being a total arse.  Why would I believe Landis?  (He even lied to supporters to get financial support for his appeal despite knowing he was guilty)

Armstrong is accused of being "canny" with his PR or having "coordinated counter-offensives" when he is accused.  What else is he supposed to do?  I have never heard Armstrong saying anything I would describe as offensive, he just comes across as extremely focussed and forthright.

Put up or shut up I say.  Provide the evidence of guilt or sit in silence.

Supposing he's innocent and you witnessed one of the greatest sporting achievements ever.

7 tours! Not even the drug-cheats managed that.

So much jealousy.

Jealousy doesn't come into it. There is a tonne of evidence.

But you are right, why pick on him rather than any of the other contenders who are just as fishy.