Author Topic: Times between intermediate controls  (Read 3855 times)

Martin

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Times between intermediate controls
« on: March 31, 2008, 10:45:45 pm »
I've been told that the times between controls doesn't matter as long as you finish in time (assuming you are only late at commercial / receipt controls not volunteer-manned ones); is this true?

(as someone who made a mad early morning dash to Blyth services to get there 10 mins late and fish a valid receipt from the petrol station bin)

Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2008, 10:53:26 pm »
They do matter. You are supposed to furnish a letter of explanation if you are late at one. In practice being late at a single control is unlikely to invalidate your brevet.

However, if you were late at several, for no good reason, and then magically made time up, questions would be asked.

chris

  • (aka chris)
Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2008, 09:05:41 am »
They do matter.

I've always thought that harsh. For instance the first control of last years Daylight 600 was about 20km, and for a slow rider like me, a fairy visit would probably put me out of time. It's good to know that there is a way around this, even if it does put you even further behind whilst faffing about getting a stamp/receipt.

cornelius

  • Three wheels on my wagon...
Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2008, 09:55:51 am »
I wonder what was the original intention of this constant speed rule?

Perhaps it is a sportsmanlike hangover/anachronism rather like the 'mark' call in Rugby Union? Incidentally Southern hemisphere boards want that one abolished as it smacks too much of public schoolboy 'pax - you can't touch me!' egalitarianism when rhinocerous man actually deserves the opportunity to forcefully introduce himself to your groin.

Max/min timing between intermediates slows the hares (arguably a good thing) but can on occasion kill off the tortoises who might raise the level of their game late in the day (a la PBP).
Like Jehu, Son of Nimshi, who drove like a maniac...

Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2008, 10:27:53 am »
Yeah - I make up about 30min in every 100k (after subtracting time for eating).  It takes me 10-15min to fix a fairy visit, so one of those + a headwind in the first 50k might put me out of time at a 50k control. 

I was assured on the BCM last year that being late at the first control on the 2nd day wouldn't matter (admittedly I was in floods at the time & the helpers were trying to reassure me & feed me tea; in the end I packed anyway 5mi up the road); and doop & I were 20min late at the halfway control of his first 100k & still got back in time & had it validated.  (stinking headwind that time, also we took a minor detour due to me missing a turn)

I can understand why it's there, but I think that the lax attitude taken to it in practice is correct.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2008, 10:37:43 am »
I wonder what was the original intention of this constant speed rule?

A couple of thoughts:
- Originally Audax was ridden as a single group traveling at 18 kph on the road (later 20, then 22.5 kph) following a 'road captain' with scheduled stops at checkpoints.  No lingering allowed.
- At some point, the volunteer manning the checkpoint should be able to go home.

Australia has the option to lower the minimum speed for an intermediate control, as long as it is specified well beforehand.  AFAIR, the rule was brought in for an event that had over 10 km of slow climbing from the start line and a checkpoint at the top.  The next 10+ km was much more fun though.

IMHO, a generous interpretation of the constant minimum speed rule is the better option.  The ACP do it at PBP after all...
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2008, 11:27:27 am »
This came up recently: Have a control at the bottom of a hill and so force everyone up there after a break, at worst cooled out and well fed, or have the slower ones run the risk of being out of time for a control on top of a hill. Me, I'd opt for a control on top of the hill with a more generous time allowance.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2008, 12:58:22 pm »
I've been told that the times between controls doesn't matter as long as you finish in time (assuming you are only late at commercial / receipt controls not volunteer-manned ones); is this true?
I believe that in practice they are almost irrelevant, because the clocks on tills, parking machines etc are so unreliable.

I tried to use a "Permit to RIde" at Didcot Parkway on Sunday morning, but the clock was displaying 1705, so i didn't see it being very worthwhile.

[I think I was just out of time at Membury on Saturday - I feel not validating the ride on that point would have been well outside the spirit of the rules, given the weather conditions on the previous leg.]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Martin

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Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2008, 01:49:45 pm »
[I think I was just out of time at Membury on Saturday - I feel not validating the ride on that point would have been well outside the spirit of the rules, given the weather conditions on the previous leg.]

I've emailed Nik requesting that your perm be invalidated; if I got there in time after an X km detour and a stonking great hill out of (forget village but it had loads of boys running round with torches and adult stewards) you certainly should have got there earlier




 ;)

FWIW you can request mine be invalidated too as the distance at Oxford station was only 299.7 km

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2008, 02:39:35 pm »
I believe that in practice they are almost irrelevant, because the clocks on tills, parking machines etc are so unreliable.

When I did the Poor Student as a perm last year (in the opposite direction to the calendar ride), the till at the ship on Shopton was half an hour slow, which meant I apparently averaged about 50 km/h over that leg.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2008, 03:44:22 pm »

FWIW you can request mine be invalidated too as the distance at Oxford station was only 299.7 km
:)
Well, it's funny you should say that ...

Before I entered this ride, I tried to make it into a DIY (just to make 1 less control to stop at, really). But the online maps REFUSED to get the shortest route up to 300k. And that's using Peartree services, not your namby-pamby Oxford city centre control.
So although the routesheet may be spot on, I suspect one could get round in a fair bit under 300km.
(p.s. I managed 207 miles, about 330km)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2008, 03:57:42 pm »
MS Autoroute 2001 gives me 290.2km going through all of the controls (including the two infos) and starting/finishing at the Peartree Travelodge. No motorways used (apart from the Severn Bridge itself).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2008, 04:33:02 pm »
More Dean 300:
I'd like to see my average speed between Newent and Marlborough* (both similar heights). Imagine if the route had started at Newent - there'd be a lot of out of time riders.

This is the first day ride where I could see this sort of thing being an issue - makes you think.

(*Yes, I  know ... )

I've always thought that harsh. For instance the first control of last years Daylight 600 was about 20km, and for a slow rider like me, a fairy visit would probably put me out of time. It's good to know that there is a way around this, even if it does put you even further behind whilst faffing about getting a stamp/receipt.
That's another good example - dad wasn't too slow to that first control EXCEPT he rather sensibly chose to walk across the bridge to Queensferry. I know he was at least 15 mins out at that control, but the helpers were applying considerable common sense that day.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2008, 05:27:20 pm »
More Dean 300:
I'd like to see my average speed between Newent and Marlborough* (both similar heights). Imagine if the route had started at Newent - there'd be a lot of out of time riders.

Through the marvels of a GPS tracklog I can give you the answer for me.

12:07 Left Newent control
15:22 arrived Chepstow control
16:01 departed Chepstow control
19:03 arrived Malmesbury control
19:37 departed Malmesbury control
22:14 arrived at Marlborough INFO
23:31 arrived at Membury control
00:08 departed Membury control
01:17 arrived at S-i-t-V INFO
01:20 departed at S-i-t-V INFO
02:48 arrived at Oxford Peartree services control

If the ride had started at Newent:-

At Chepstow (49.7km) I was just within time (3h28 allowed, 3h15 taken).
At Malmesbury (99.1km) I would have been out of time by 6 minutes (6h55 allowed, 7h1 taken)
By Marlborough (135.3km) I was now 40min out of time (9h27 allowed, 10h7 taken)
At Membury (154.4km) down to 37min out of time (10h47 allowed, 11h24 taken)
At S-i-t-V (175.4km) 55 minutes over (12h15 allowed, 13h10 taken)
At the finish: (205.km) I would have clawed it back to just 18 minutes (14h23 allowed, 14h41 taken).

But then I wouldn't have needed to stop for so long at Chepstow, and I wouldn't have had 100km in my legs by then.

Between Newent and Marlborough I did 135.3km in 10h7 mins or 13.37kph but I had stopped for 1h13 mins along the way (39 at Chepstow and 34 minutes at Malmesbury), if I'd kept them to under 40 minutes in total I'd have scraped in.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2008, 10:24:32 pm »
This came up recently: Have a control at the bottom of a hill and so force everyone up there after a break, at worst cooled out and well fed, or have the slower ones run the risk of being out of time for a control on top of a hill. Me, I'd opt for a control on top of the hill with a more generous time allowance.

Sounds like one of my brevets ;)
There are several official reasons which allow you to be late at a control. Among them are helping a rider with a mechanical or health problems, giving a witness statement at an accident and road blocks. The usual system is that you have 3 controls to catch back the lost time and be inline with the official control closures.
In real life there are only very few organizers who would invalidate your brevetcard if you're out of time at 1 or 2 controls. Especially if the topography of the ride is a major factor in this. A couple of years back I participated a 600 in a fairly hilly area. The control at abt. 400km was located quite high and a sleep stop was scheduled for those who wished to sleep. The organiser told us before the start that he wouldn't mind us being late at that particular control.

Martin

  • Give me bas relief
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Re: Times between intermediate controls
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2008, 01:26:08 am »
found the ride;

the section in which one would want to sleep (if one was so lucky) is between

Control 300km
(18.00 - 02.00)

and

Control 363km
(20.31 – 06.12)