Author Topic: Diy by Gps  (Read 12162 times)

Diy by Gps
« on: August 05, 2010, 10:17:50 pm »
Had a look at the rules .   Why do you need to enter controls all you need is a start and finish , each point on the track is a mini control with all the information.    If going digital lets do it 100%. ride the route then e-mail track and e-card  to organiser and if its wrong tough luck half the work  .  I dont mind a track failure if i start doing DIYs, no great loss always another day for the ride.
 

Martin

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2010, 10:26:09 pm »
salar; it's all been discussed at length before but in a nutshell AUK validation requires a brevet card with control points and distances between them; a straight gps track does not provide all of this so the new system is a way of meeting the existing rules without the need for receipts / stamps / actual cards etc;

but certainly something worth bringing up at an AGM


Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2010, 10:45:26 pm »
I too would press for a route-based validation. Rather like this:

1. Rider supplies route/track file - this is the stated track.
2. Rider later supplies actual track of ride ridden. If within 95% (or whatever agreed limit) then ride is credited.

I have several such rides planned - rides that follow specific routes (such as beside rivers) rather than between control points.

Martin

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2010, 10:49:57 pm »
Chris; one major factor to think about in any proposed change (which FWIW might make it a lot easier to validate if it ever did happen) is that AUK validation currently runs on the basis of Allure Libre so we can only insist that riders visit the stated control points and cannot mandate the route taken between them.

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2010, 08:55:03 am »
Just a few random thoughts - my impression is that the guys doing the work on this project are doing a great job of finessing the new system to fit in with conventional AUK thinking/procedures and not causing friction with anyone who might see "the GPS thing " as somehow disadvantaging the non-GPS user. (I don't think it does myself, but I suspect there are a few who might do so.)

As has been said elsewhere before, if we had started with a clean sheet of paper we'd likely have designed this procedure a bit differently. As Chris says (or implies) why not just compose a route on your desktop, either as a .gpx file or an Autoroute file, without nominating specific locations as "Controls", and send it in for pre-approval with your Entry Form and then go ride it. One possible consequence could be that on the day you actually go a slightly different route, either by accident or by design. So what, you say, so long as you've ridden the requisite distance, what's the problem? Well, this is only one simple step away from saying "I'm just going for a ride; if it amounts to [200]km I'll send in the trackfile and get it validated." There would be no point in pre-submitting a specifed route if there's no requirement to stick to it for validation purposes.

OK you say, why not have it totally "free"? The response to this is that, compared with conventional paper based Calendar and Permanent rides, you are (in the eyes of many people) diluting the degree of difficulty and therefore the challenge, of setting out to do a particular ride and establishing a wider gulf between the respective "philosophies" of the traditional and digital approaches. It's a matter of separate debate as to whether this is important or not.

For me, at the moment, they've got it about right. It's not a problem to pick out a sufficient number of specific locations on my planned route to act as "controls" - I'd be doing that almost as part of my planning process when getting the minimum distance right.

My own "grumble" is that I still don't see why we have to nominate a precise day/date of the ride - I like to send in an undated Entry Form and just ride it when the mood (and weather) suits me. OK you say, it's a matter of moments to send an e-mail ten minutes before you start, giving the date, but how and why does that change anything material? I don't see why it should be an issue for insurance purposes; I think it's just a hangover from "the paper world". But it's a rather trivial point I admit and not one I'd fuss about.

Another observation concerns the new guide on the AUK site - pedantic points - the webpage and the .pdf file are very similar and serve the same function; I'd like to see them identical. One talks of an Entry Form, t'other "an application form" and someone coming fresh to the subject might well ask "where do I get the "application form" from? On the .pdf there is no link to it as there is on the webpage.

Also, my experience has been that it's very easy to get your intended route pre-approved if you simply email your Autoroute file in with or in advance of your Entry Form. I'd suggest the guides could add this as an option for those people who have Autoroute.

But hey, this is great progress and I'll repeat my gratitude to those who have worked very hard to make it happen.

Martin

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2010, 09:09:17 am »

My own "grumble" is that I still don't see why we have to nominate a precise day/date of the ride - I like to send in an undated Entry Form and just ride it when the mood (and weather) suits me. OK you say, it's a matter of moments to send an e-mail ten minutes before you start, giving the date, but how and why does that change anything material? I don't see why it should be an issue for insurance purposes; I think it's just a hangover from "the paper world". But it's a rather trivial point I admit and not one I'd fuss about.

I don't think you do; yes you have to specify a date on the new online entry form but you can send that just before you get on the bike, you were also able to do that under the paper based or emailed system

if you are worried about the minimum distance beforehand you can simply drop the DIY org a list of controls (preferably measured as shortest distance to save us the bother on viamichelin) or an AX file so you know it's been pre-approved  :)

on the subject; I get a lot of emailed entry froms from riders who already have the paper cards; I don't see any reason why these cannot go online via the AUK website either, I'll have a huddle

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2010, 09:40:18 am »
I've done a couple of GPS-verified perms, and I think the system works really well.  The last one was organised entirely on-line - I paid for "cards", entered and submitted my brevet and gpx file all on line.

I think that there is a danger that we try to push the boundries because we now have this really flexible, and fast, means of entering / verifying the rides.  The principle of stating in advance what your route will be (defined by intermediate "control" points) and when it will be done fits with all other types of event, and (I think importantly) allows for a DNF.  Without that, it is less of a challenge, just another ride; less "audacious".  I don't find the requirement to email my intent to "ride tomorrow" a great inconvenience.

I'm just really glad that there is a team of guys prepared to make this possible.

frankly frankie

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Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2010, 10:34:03 am »
it's a matter of moments to send an e-mail ten minutes before you start, giving the date, but how and why does that change anything material? I don't see why it should be an issue for insurance purposes;

I would suggest it's because AUK (who is the insured 'organiser' of any Permanent, according to the Handbook) is insured "during the event".
(Documentation is unclear as to what constitutes the duration of an event - but hey, this is insurance, what do you expect.)

Therefore your riding date (and start time, really) has to be documented before the start, or there is no insurance, which from AUK's point of view would not be acceptable.
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Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2010, 11:36:13 am »
Good god!  What on earth are you trying to do?

Are you suggesting that audax leave the dark ages? ;D

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2010, 11:45:08 am »
As an outsider, about to join AUK and having just bought a gps, the new system looks like it captures the spirit of the paper based system, keeping the need to plan intact, whilst offering the flexibility that not having to worry whether shop x is open affords.

The long thread is well worth a read.

Martin

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2010, 11:45:13 am »
If riders are going to put every nook and cranny of the ride in as a control in order to force it on their chosen route I don't have any problem with this; but what's needed is a standard system of identifying the control points; at the moment AR doesn't like postcodes but it is a lot more flexible than VM which only allows 4 controls per route and requires multiple routes for longer or more convoluted rides (assuming their AX file likes my version)

perhaps someone with a lot of IT savvy could write a bespoke solution for AUK?  ;)

Manotea

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Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2010, 12:14:34 pm »
... At the moment AR doesn't like postcodes...

Oh yes it does

DanialW

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2010, 12:41:23 pm »
Chris; one major factor to think about in any proposed change (which FWIW might make it a lot easier to validate if it ever did happen) is that AUK validation currently runs on the basis of Allure Libre so we can only insist that riders visit the stated control points and cannot mandate the route taken between them.

Exactly. Also, the entry is the time at which you set your challenge. That would mean the route would then be mandatory, if we didn't ride allure libre. That's a lot more hassle to check, especially long, laney rides, or those that pass through cities. There's also a lot more opportunity to take a wrong turn, and not ride the route.

Adopting the shortest distance route, for now, is the simplest way to run DIY by GPS. It's easy to understand, well-understood, and easy to check and validate. It also matches the way we validate other rides. I'm not closed to the idea we might validate any type of audax ride by actual distance, but I don't think this is the right time to do so.


Jaded

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Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2010, 01:02:18 pm »
Although you can enter some calendar events on the day, 'entering' a DIY on the day doesn't seem to be in the spirit of Audax - choosing the weather to go out in is not part of the calendar way usually!

Maybe the online entry page shouldn't accept EOLs?
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Martin

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2010, 01:05:58 pm »
Although you can enter some calendar events on the day, 'entering' a DIY on the day doesn't seem to be in the spirit of Audax - choosing the weather to go out in is not part of the calendar way usually!

disagree; the perms section of the AUK website specifically (or at least used to) sings the praises of being able to choose the weather for a perm; they are IMO generally harder than calendar events so why make them any harder by chancing the weather?

if you used the weather as a factor favouring certain rides you'd have to award extra points for calendar events starting in Cornwall Wales or Scotland

(ducks)

Jaded

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Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2010, 01:14:08 pm »
You don't get points for wind though!  ;D
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mattc

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Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2010, 01:37:56 pm »
Although you can enter some calendar events on the day, 'entering' a DIY on the day doesn't seem to be in the spirit of Audax - choosing the weather to go out in is not part of the calendar way usually!

disagree; the perms section of the AUK website specifically (or at least used to) sings the praises of being able to choose the weather for a perm; they are IMO generally harder than calendar events so why make them any harder by chancing the weather?
It's only certain orgs that allow this, IIRC. And doesn't GPS (route and validation) make them easier? <runs>
Has never ridden RAAM
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Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2010, 01:43:20 pm »
it's a matter of moments to send an e-mail ten minutes before you start, giving the date, but how and why does that change anything material? I don't see why it should be an issue for insurance purposes;

I would suggest it's because AUK (who is the insured 'organiser' of any Permanent, according to the Handbook) is insured "during the event".
(Documentation is unclear as to what constitutes the duration of an event - but hey, this is insurance, what do you expect.)

Therefore your riding date (and start time, really) has to be documented before the start, or there is no insurance, which from AUK's point of view would not be acceptable.
Yes I guess that's really my point. I suspect that it went like this:

Insurance guy: " so you want cover for bike rides then - how do they work?"
AUK: "riders tell us when, how far and where they're going to ride and we write on little cards and add things up"
IG: "So you know [how many passenger miles = an assessable risk] then; OK, done, that'll be £[xxxx] please"

And it's gone into AUK rules procedures and folklore that for insurance purposes it's necessary to know precise dates of each ride. Under the Calendar system, this was known automatically so no one had to think "hey we've got the extra hassle of notifying this" - the Calendar system was just duplicated for Permanents and then DIYs without anyone questionning "why precisely do we have to stipulate the ride date?"

If we went back to the insurance guy and said: "do we really need to know exactly when the rider miles are done as opposed to how many rider miles are done?" I'll bet he'd say: "no, that's just what you said you did at the start".

If someone was able to say to me that the insurance cost was adjusted periodically according to how many rides were on a [Mon]day, weekend, etc. I 'd concede the need to know, but otherwise, see above.

And I'm not advocating picking up the 'phone and calling the Insurance guy because that'll just mean more money. As I said earlier, it's a trivial point really and not much of a hassle now we have email; I'm just being picky - it's in my nature I'm afraid!

Martin

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2010, 01:43:30 pm »
Although you can enter some calendar events on the day, 'entering' a DIY on the day doesn't seem to be in the spirit of Audax - choosing the weather to go out in is not part of the calendar way usually!

disagree; the perms section of the AUK website specifically (or at least used to) sings the praises of being able to choose the weather for a perm; they are IMO generally harder than calendar events so why make them any harder by chancing the weather?
It's only certain orgs that allow this, IIRC.

the AUK insurance issue needs to be addressed; What would the insurers make of a ride that was entered by email the night before a ride to a DIY org who may well have been on holiday at the time?

on a perm I was riding if an insurance issue ever came up I'd probably use my CTC insurance anyway]

(and hide my route sheet  ;))


Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2010, 01:52:09 pm »
Since the insurance is 3rd party and not for you and your actual bike, how many people have actually ever had to claim on it anyway? I'm kind of confused as to why you would need insurance when just riding around a few lanes (not racing) following a few turns written down on a scrap of paper anyway. What is the difference from riding around normally when not doing an audax? I can however imagine plenty of occasions where I might want to claim on some motorist's insurance though.

Martin

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2010, 01:57:03 pm »
Since the insurance is 3rd party and not for you and your actual bike, how many people have actually ever had to claim on it anyway? I'm kind of confused as to why you would need insurance when just riding around a few lanes (not racing) following a few turns written down on a scrap of paper anyway. What is the difference from riding around normally when not doing an audax? I can however imagine plenty of occasions where I might want to claim on some motorist's insurance though.


You are correct in that it's TPI only (and a recent case involving two riders on the same event has now raised the excess for cycle damage to £500 IIRC)

but AIUI it's more aimed at protecting the organiser, for example if a group of riders are riding quite legally two abreast on an event and some plonker in a 4 x 4 coming the other way has to swerve and goes into a ditch etc he can try and claim against AUK not the organiser by saying that were it not for the vent he would not have had the accident (after all groups of cyclists riding on the road are confined to organised events aren't they?  ;))

(I think)

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2010, 01:58:16 pm »
What is the difference from riding around normally when not doing an audax?

Audax UK wouldn't be responsible in any way for any bother you got yourself into when not riding an Audax.

When you are riding an Audax they *might* incur some liability, so they offset that with the insurance (and risk assessments, etc, etc).
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Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2010, 02:00:50 pm »
But normal members of the public would have no clue what and Audax was anyway would they?  ;D

Martin

Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2010, 02:06:34 pm »
But normal members of the public cyclists would have no clue what Audax was anyway would they?  ;D

FTFY  ;)

actually normal members of the public can get very shirty when their right to drive how when and where they like is compromised by a bunch of road-tax avoiding lycra louts, especially if it involves them having a mishap.

every organised bike event in the UK requires TPI for this reason (not sure how CTT fits in with this)

Cyklisten

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Re: Diy by Gps
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2010, 02:25:34 pm »
You don't get points for wind though!  ;D

but you rarely find somebody on your wheel  :demon:
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