+ size women want their own clothing range designed

[hellymedic]

Fat people get hungry, just like thin people.
Hunger is a basic survival instinct and when eating, people may not think much of any obesity problem, just about addressing The Hunger.

[nutkin]

People seem to behave as if fat people don't know they're fat and as if they have the right to comment.

This is also true for thin people.

Since I hit my thirties I've put on weight. Before that I used to regularly be accused of being anorexic. Can you imagine how much that hurt?

So aside from the clothing available we had better start redesigning our world if we are going to accept that people are getting bigger and that it is okay.

Somewhere upthread I posted a link to an article which gives examples of this happening - extra-wide seats in cars, for example.

[bobb]

Denial?  How can a fat person, one that is morbidly obese actually eat a kebab?
Is it because they are in denial of the effect it will have upon their already overweight body.

Of course they can eat a kebab. It's exactly the same as an alcoholic thinking "I really must stop drinking", but they get all depressed about it. So what do they do to comfort them? Drink.

You may be very careful about your health, but many other people aren't. I smoke. I know it's bad for me, but I couldn't really give a shit....

[nutkin]

Irrespective of what size an adult is, it is, in a large part their choice.

Which is why I found this piece so alarming.

As more and more children start primary school overweight, retailers are having to expand the waistlines on school uniforms.

Marks and Spencer is the latest to join in the growing trend. They have launched a 'Plus' range for super-sized pupils, starting from the age of just four.

One of the children interviewed said that they don't agree with plus-sized clothing because then they would have nothing to aim for.

[hellymedic]

I think that big kid understood the problem. Obviously, fat kids still have to go to school, can't go naked and will be easier to teach if their clothes aren't so tight they hurt.
I suppose we ought to be clothing big people now and addressing their diet and lifestyle long-term. The difficulty will be doing this helpfully and supportively without appearing patronising or nannying. We've not even managed to avoid that in this thread...

[hellymedic]

Even 40 years ago, school outfitters supplied 'stout' fittings. More schoolwear now comes from chain stores so they are now filling thiis need. The problem of obesity (both child and adult) is on the the rise though.

[GruB]

Irrespective of what size an adult is, it is, in a large part their choice.

Which is why I found this piece so alarming.

As more and more children start primary school overweight, retailers are having to expand the waistlines on school uniforms.

Marks and Spencer is the latest to join in the growing trend. They have launched a 'Plus' range for super-sized pupils, starting from the age of just four.

One of the children interviewed said that they don't agree with plus-sized clothing because then they would have nothing to aim for.

That young lad - the first one to do the piece to camera actually said something like "it is actually good that we have a range of clothes that we can just go in and find something to fit more easily, but on the other side it makes it more accepting and it gives them nothing to aspire to lose weight for".

NB: I appreciate that Nutkin included this above - but I thought it worthy to repeat as he actually said himself the words - making it more accepting.

[CrinklyLion]

I can aspire to lose weight because I look, feel and live better when I'm thinner.  

In the meantime I'd quite like clothes shopping to not be a strange form of punishment, where I pay significantly more money for a very much smaller choice of generally lower quality clothing, for my terrible crime of inflicting my lardiness on the world.

[Julian]

What CrinklyLion said.  

I'm appalled by some of the attitudes on this thread.  I think some of you might like to look at this:

[GruB]

After a bit of googling, I then found this article.

Jeez, that is a scary read if we are following the trend America is.
It also says that fat people are loyal customers and they are prepared to pay more for their clothing if it fits than their thin counterparts.

[Panoramix]

I can aspire to lose weight because I look, feel and live better when I'm thinner.  

In the meantime I'd quite like clothes shopping to not be a strange form of punishment, where I pay significantly more money for a very much smaller choice of generally lower quality clothing, for my terrible crime of inflicting my lardiness on the world.

 

This seems  very fair too me!

Though I am not sure that fairness comes naturally into the equation of economics!   To kick one of my preferred subject, may be "lardy" ladies should start a buyer cooperative to force what they need onto the market!

[Julian]

I seem to recall that we had this discussion back at the old place (and Grub, I seem to recall that you started that one too - why the obsession?) 

Lots of people do lots of things that aren't good for them.  One of the things that isn't good for people is obsessively curtain-twitching about other people's habits.  I don't recall what I wrote at the last place but I know I said that collective nosiness was as bad for the nation's collective psyche as pork pie is for the nation's collective waistline, and I'm still very much of the same opinion.

You don't know when you see a fat person in the street whether s/he's actually lost six stone already and still going.  You don't know if they've been a major exerciser who's had to give up their sport but carried on eating (one of my old PE teachers fell into this category.  She killed herself.  Possibly from attitudes like these.)  You don't know anything about them and it is seriously bloody rude to make presumptions that they a) don't know that they're fat, b) don't know that it's unhealthy, c) are doing nothing about it.  They probably are, and if they're not, sanctimonious contempt from strangers isn't going to help.

[Charlotte]

This thread is giving me the right hump 

Let's go ten pages back to the OP:

Mrs G is watching BBC News and Madame Coupe is talking ( she appears American ) about + size clothes that are now required on the High Street for all the larger women out there.

There are lots of reasons why women are getting larger she said.....

Looking at the size of her neck she certainly needs a larger collar size than me.  All those chins.

But really, it would seem that the 'I'm fat and proud' movement is gaining momentum ( pardon the pun ) and the health benefits of not getting to this size are being ignored.

It's one thing to start a thread about ladies plus sized clothing - if you're a woman yourself.  I have to question the motivation of a man who starts one.

Irrespective of your gender, it's really quite unpleasant to start a thread like this, just to sit in judgement on others and to make pronouncements from a position of privilege.  If you've never been chronically overweight, (and by this, I mean clinically and morbidly obese) then I think you're best off trying to empathize a little bit more and opine a little less.

If you've ever been there yourself, you'll know that being very fat isn't as simple a health issue as being unfit or being addicted to tobacco.  Being fat is something that is intertwined with your personal self-image, as well as the way that you necessarily have to portray yourself to the world.  Nobody wants to be fat - it's horrible.  What people want to be is to be left alone to work out whether they can deal with being fat or not in their own time and their own way.

Fat-shaming is socially no more acceptable than any other kind of abuse based on people being different.  It's vile and it's nasty and we should see it for the prejudice that it is.

Whether it's groups of cat-calling youths, smug magazine articles or posts like Greg's, it's still the same stuff:

And I'm afraid that clinically obese people do adversely affect other people.  Whilst it is nice to think that we should allow everyone to live their lives as they wish, we have to remember that 'no man is an island' and there is such a thing as society.  Obesity and its related impacts cost the NHS and social services billions each year. Obesity and obesity related health issues will soon overtake smoking as the primary cause of disability and preventable deaths in the UK. 

The extra demands on the NHS and social servies means that it adversely impacts upon the taxpayer - you and me.  At least smokers pay into the Treasury much, much more than they eventually cost the NHS, etc.

I'm a fat bugger.  I've really put on weight after spending several years on steroids - but I have to admit that the reason the weight is still on is that I eat too much, drink too much and don't get enough exercise.

I struggle to lose weight and know how soul-destroying it can be.  So I empathise and sympathise with those who find it difficult.  But I also get annoyed when people try to suggest that we should 'normalise' obesity - it doesn't do anyone any favours.

Promoting excercise and healthy eating area absolutely what the government and NHS should be doing.

Trying to argue that society should regard people's body sizes as "abnormal" if they don't conform to a certain ideal isn't going to help anyone.

Just because you're fat, doesn't mean you're incapable of fat-shaming others.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

Denial?  How can a fat person, one that is morbidly obese actually eat a kebab?
Is it because they are in denial of the effect it will have upon their already overweight body.
In for a penny and in for a pound.

Maybe. Maybe they don't mind that they're obese. Maybe they don't care. Maybe they have complex psychological issues which mean they find being morbidly obese comforting and familiar and the thought of losing weight is scary and threatening. Maybe they like food more than exercise and think ill health and early death is a price worth paying. Maybe they don't give a shit what anyone else thinks. Maybe they prioritise other things in their life.

Why does it matter to you what other people do with their bodies?

[GruB]

Charlotte,
I am called fat by my children daily.  I am fat by their standards but I fully accept that I may not be fat by others.
My BMI is too high but I am working on that and I appear to be winning albeit slowly and with much dedication and it is far from easy.  It is horrible and I hate doing it but I have to do it.  I have no choice.

Why did I start this thread?  Mainly because Mrs G was aggrieved by the subject on the news and how some fat American was explaining why there is a need to introduce another clothing size range.

As to why I think like this, perhaps I am fatisct?  I certainly have been brought up to closely monitor my weight - mother was a diabetic and she used to joke that I caused it by kicking her in the pancreas.  Guilt maybe that I caused such an illness upon her?  I don't know.

But what I do know is that this used to be a place where one could share their thoughts, no matter how emotional they got as the act of sharing views and ideas can enlighten others, inspire others and even might help views to be changed or altered.

I don't' see the need to criticise or act all sanctimonious as it goes against my last point and makes this a police state in more ways than one.

[Julian]

Yeah, I don't like it when people criticise and get all sanctimonious either.

Which is why I haven't liked a lot of the fat-shaming on this thread. 

[border-rider]

 

[nutkin]

Any discussion about weight is going to be emotive.

A statement that being overweight is unhealthy and a possible burden on the NHS is not being discriminatory. It's a fact. The same could be said of being underweight. And it should be said too.

But for some reason society is becoming more accepting of 'overweight' as the norm. I don't think this is good. Whilst we accept that people come in a range of sizes, I do have to wonder if increasingly that range is encompassing more and more sizes at the top end of the scale. And I have to wonder why.

Whilst I accept that there are many reasons for being overweight, and I do not sit in judgement of those who are, I also think that morbid obesity is not something we, as a society, should learn to live with. If people's health is affected by their weight, it is something that should be addressed. As is smoking and excessive drinking. But name-calling is not the way to go.

Partly, I suspect, as our society becomes more and more leisured, with food more readily available, we are losing touch with how much we need to eat. And by this I mean everyone, not just people who are overweight. Slowly, as a whole, the population gets bigger.

And I really believe that clothing sizes have a part to play in this.

In the 1980's an M&S size 8 had a 23" waist. Now it is 25.5". With this trend for vanity sizing, it is possible to gain a stone or two over a lifetime, yet always wear the same size label. How would you know you had gained weight? What was once thought of as 'large' (say a size 18), now becomes 'average' - a re-branded 14. Well, 14 sounds more acceptable than 18, doesn't it?

It's ridiculous. I don't care what size label is inside my clothes, no-one but me sees them, so no-one knows. What I do want to know though, is that a 12 in one shop is the same as a 12 in another. Clearly, as ladies clothing sizes are so arbitrary (what does '12' refer to anyway?) it would be better to use a system of actual measurements. I don't expect to remain the same size throughout my adult life, therefore I don't expect to wear the same dress-size. If I go up a size or two, so what? It's just a small garment label I can always cut out.

If your bust is 34", wouldn't it be nice to walk into a shop, ANY shop, and know that the top you want, the one labelled 34", really IS designed for a 34" bust? Surely this would help people of all sizes? Can we relly be so focused on a random number that people can't consider buying clothes according to their measurements?

If you want stylish clothes that fit, are well made, suit your personality and age, then you should be able to buy them off-the-peg. In all sizes.

Tackling the health of the nation should not be the preserve of fashion.

[Sergeant Pluck]

It's quite strange that while other types of potentially harmful behaviour such as smoking can be freely criticised, being extremely overweight seems to warrant some kind of protected status. It's not about fat-hate. We are all free to comment on changes that we observe around us.

I work with some people every day who are suffering the consequences of being obese*. Most of them are aware of the connection, many have been trying to do something about it, etc etc, but some don't make the connection. There is nothing wrong with increasing awareness of the possible negative effects to try to reduce the numbers of people who find themselves having avoidable life-changing difficulties later in life. It's not "fat-shaming" any more or less than the more full-on anti-smoking campaigns, it's about trying to help. It's not about wanting everyone to conform to an ideal, it's about ensuring people are aware that once you pass beyond a certain range, things might get difficult for them as life goes on. It's not about the cost to society, it's about the fact that life can be very unhappy for some people when the body begins to show the effects of having carried around too much weight for too long: unable to work, travel as easily, enjoy life with their families etc etc in comparison with others in their age group.

*It's only one of many many influences on health, some unavoidable, some not.

Apologies if my earlier posts seemed sanctimonious. I am a long way from perfect in terms of healthy behaviour. But we are all still free to comment on threads like this.

[Julian]

A person's potential weight related health problems are between them and their doctor. 

Of course the NHS has a part to play in education and awareness, but what I find unacceptable is when the rest of society is encouraged to join in with what is basically state-sponsored bullying.  Was there a fat kid in your class who was picked on for being fat?  Did bullying help when that child was ten years old?  No, and it won't help when they're forty either.

Does everyone really need to join in with the 'education and awareness' stuff?  Do you think that fat people don't know that they're fat and it's unhealthy?  Really? 

Plus sized clothing ranges are useful because fat people need clothes.  It doesn't matter if they're a fat person who is losing weight or a fat person who is gaining weight or a fat person of static weight.  It doesn't matter if their fat has a root psychological cause or physiological cause or plain old indolence.  It is not my business whether complete strangers have medical problems or not and it's not yours either.

Here are some light hearted cartoons on the subject:

So much fun being a fat woman during the summer

Liss has the right to bare arms.

[bobb]

Can people stop talking about smoking please? It's not relavent!!

Smoking is GOOD FOR YOU! It contains vitamin C and stuff!

[SteveC]

I'm sure that people's expectation of 'correct' weight is getting out of kilter.
I used to be very large (6' and 17 stone).  I managed to lose a lot of that excess weight (and the cycling certainly helped).
Keeping it off is not easy and I am currently at around 13.5 stone, which is about half a stone into overweight BMI.
I bumped into an old friend a couple of weeks ago who hasn't seen me for a few years (although he did see me at my thinnest) and he commented on how good I looked and how it was good that I'd kept all the weight off.  I muttered something about having put weight back on and he commented that I'd been 'too thin' before.  I never got to an underweight BMI.

People are now used to people being bigger.

S

[hellymedic]

nutkin makes some excellent points.
I also think vanity sizing may have an insidious effect on our eating behaviour.
A tight waistband/belt can stop some people eating too much, gently and non-judgementally. If a new waistband in 'the same size' is a couple of inches bigger, there's little to stop you eating a bit more...

[Julian]

People are now used to people being bigger.

I think people are generally bigger than we were - we're taller, too, and we live longer.  A hundred years ago I'd have been tall for a gurl; these days I'm well below average.

Oh, the waist size thing?  I could have a tiny waist if I wore a corset or girdle every day.  I'd rather my internal organs didn't get squished though.  Generally speaking, I'm much healthier than I would have been 100 years ago.  I'm taller, with stronger bones and better teeth, broader shoulders and wider hips.  I have a longer life expectancy.  And yes, a larger waist.  I think the waist thing is a sacrifice I'm willing to make (and it's not really related to obesity; it's related to how human bodies have changed with post WWII diet.)

[Sergeant Pluck]

what I find unacceptable is when the rest of society is encouraged to join in with what is basically state-sponsored bullying

I often see what might be described as media-driven bullying, but not what I could classify as "state-sponsored". No, not everyone needs to join in the "awareness" stuff and I don't think that they are, by and large.

I do meet (in the course of my work) an increasing minority of people who do not make the link between their weight and their current or potential health issues for a wide range of reasons, including the various psychological or family based reasons mentioned in earlier posts, or due to cultural factors.