+ size women want their own clothing range designed

[Sergeant Pluck]

Being fat is what you ARE

True, apologies for the poor choice of words. I don't think it detracts from my point, as in the vast majority of cases if one is very overweight, or indeed if one loses weight, it is the result of one's lifestyle or behaviour to a significant degree. And that of course is a matter for the individual.

All I suggest is that normalisation of marked obesity, or the widespread acceptance that it is something that is not amenable to change, is harmful.

[hellymedic]

Crinkly, well done for losing three stone!
Having lost one measly stone a few times but since regained it, I can sort of appreciate how much persistence, hard work and suffering are needed. Keep going and don't let the b***ards grind you down!

[Julian]

Right now, despite being 5'10 and 12st7lbs, I'm still overweight and if truth be told, I'd rather be lighter because I've got wobbly bits I don't like

Likewise, substituting 6'1" and 90 kg. I don't think anyone on the forum is likely to fall into the ranges I am thinking of in my posts above; I am thinking of people who at a relatively young age are finding a 15 minute walk on the flat a bit of a struggle in the absence of any underlying health issues.

The only times I've struggled with fitness, as opposed to fatness, was when I was reasonably thin.  I looked "healthy" if "looking healthy" translates as "being slim" but I was smoking too much, drinking too much, and couldn't do an exercise class without falling apart.

There is something wrong when there is so much avoidable ill health that is very often related to lifestyle and diet. It's a legitimate subject for debate. To do so is not to say that people over such and such a weight or size are pariahs, and it is possible to have such a debate without involving "pity" or comments on how people "look".

It's a legitimate subject to debate but please be aware that weight is used as such a massive club to beat people with, particularly women, that a lot of us are very sensitive about it.  

Avoidable ill health relating to drinking, or smoking, or even over-training, doesn't carry the same stigma as Being Fat.  People who are fat are often stigmatised as stupid, or lazy, or greedy, or all three.  

Did anybody see the Saturday interview with Anne Robinson in the Guardian?  Five separate references in there to how thin she is.  She's a size eight, worries if the scales tip over 8 stone 10 lb, in case you were wondering.  Oh, and she'd most like to be remembered as 'thin.'  What does that tell you about priorities?  Women and girls are encouraged to be thin and stay thin - there are whole double-page spreads in those hideous celebrity mags dedicated to blowing up photos of already slim celebrities with a red arrow pointing to their imaginary cellulite.  

Fat acceptance is not the same as encouraging people to get morbidly obese.  It's about treating everybody with dignity and respect, and IF their fat is a health problem, having the courtesy to leave them to discuss that with their doctor.  There's a very good article about it here.

[Regulator]

...
It's a legitimate subject to debate but please be aware that weight is used as such a massive club to beat people with, particularly women, that a lot of us are very sensitive about it.  

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.  Men are just as "beaten up" over their weight as women.  Fat isn't just a feminist issue.

Avoidable ill health relating to drinking, or smoking, or even over-training, doesn't carry the same stigma as Being Fat.  People who are fat are often stigmatised as stupid, or lazy, or greedy, or all three.  

Again, I have to disagree.  Smokers and drinkers are stigmatised as well.  Just think of the number of TV programmes about 'drunker Britain' or the amount of avertising that paints smokers as selfish or stupid...

[rogerzilla]

Methinks RZ would find getting a minimum order from Owayo very difficult if only sizes S & M were on offer...

If we did an S&M range of bike clothing I reckon it would be a massive seller.

Oh, that's not what you meant, is it? 

[Cudzoziemiec]

The only times I've struggled with fitness, as opposed to fatness, was when I was reasonably thin.  I looked "healthy" if "looking healthy" translates as "being slim" but I was smoking too much, drinking too much, and couldn't do an exercise class without falling apart.

I was thinking about this earlier, but you've touched on a core issue, I think. As a society we have come to equate thin with fit, and vice versa. There are other parts of the world where healthy is equated with fat and vice versa. Both are a reaction IMO against the prevailing or recently prevailing trend of food availability. Places where many people are undernourished assume a fat person is healthy (and rich). In the West lack of food is not a problem and we make the opposite assumption. In both cases it's sometimes correct and sometimes not. There are probably quite a few overweight but fit people who've contributed to this thread. There are quite a few skinny labourers in parts of Asia or Africa who are actually fitter and healthier than their sturdier and richer but lazier compatriots. Etc.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

Did anybody see the Saturday interview with Anne Robinson in the Guardian?  Five separate references in there to how thin she is.  She's a size eight, worries if the scales tip over 8 stone 10 lb, in case you were wondering.  Oh, and she'd most like to be remembered as 'thin.'  What does that tell you about priorities?  Women and girls are encouraged to be thin and stay thin - there are whole double-page spreads in those hideous celebrity mags dedicated to blowing up photos of already slim celebrities with a red arrow pointing to their imaginary cellulite.  

Years and years ago I saw Maureen Lipman being interviewed by Anne and Nick on breakfast telly and she was talking about her weight and said that she'd been really fat once. She said "I was ten stone" and Anne was horrified "ooooh were you really? Ten stone? Really?"

According to imdb, Maureen Lipman is 5'7" tall.

[hellymedic]

Methinks RZ would find getting a minimum order from Owayo very difficult if only sizes S & M were on offer...

If we did an S&M range of bike clothing I reckon it would be a massive seller.

Oh, that's not what you meant, is it? 

Might e a good way to lose weight; Instant Whip anyone? 

[Regulator]

Methinks RZ would find getting a minimum order from Owayo very difficult if only sizes S & M were on offer...

If we did an S&M range of bike clothing I reckon it would be a massive seller.

Oh, that's not what you meant, is it? 

Might e a good way to lose weight; Instant Whip anyone? 

You called?   

[rogerzilla]

Ironically, Anne Diamond herself got Very Large after the Anne and Nick days, leading to Celebrity Fit Club and Gastricbandgate (see also Fern Britton).

[hellymedic]

Methinks RZ would find getting a minimum order from Owayo very difficult if only sizes S & M were on offer...

If we did an S&M range of bike clothing I reckon it would be a massive seller.

Oh, that's not what you meant, is it? 

Might e a good way to lose weight; Instant Whip anyone? 

You called?   

Now you're torquing..

[Zoidburg]

...
It's a legitimate subject to debate but please be aware that weight is used as such a massive club to beat people with, particularly women, that a lot of us are very sensitive about it.  

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.  Men are just as "beaten up" over their weight as women.  Fat isn't just a feminist issue.

Avoidable ill health relating to drinking, or smoking, or even over-training, doesn't carry the same stigma as Being Fat.  People who are fat are often stigmatised as stupid, or lazy, or greedy, or all three.  

Again, I have to disagree.  Smokers and drinkers are stigmatised as well.  Just think of the number of TV programmes about 'drunker Britain' or the amount of avertising that paints smokers as selfish or stupid...

I am finding this thread to be an interesting comparison with this thread

Battling the bottle.

[Julian]

...
It's a legitimate subject to debate but please be aware that weight is used as such a massive club to beat people with, particularly women, that a lot of us are very sensitive about it.  

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.  Men are just as "beaten up" over their weight as women.  Fat isn't just a feminist issue.

Yes Greg.  That's why I said PARTICULARLY women and not EXCLUSIVELY women.  

I do believe that women get more hassle about what they look like than men do.  Men can look "distinguished" with a little excess weight or grey hair; women can't.  Men don't constantly critique each other's appearance and although the men who appear in Men's Health and other gay porn men's publications tend to have a good figure, they haven't been airbrushed into a state of physical impossibility and I've never seen a magazine aimed at men which contained eight pages of "Celebrity (men) looking FAT!!!!!"  

Avoidable ill health relating to drinking, or smoking, or even over-training, doesn't carry the same stigma as Being Fat.  People who are fat are often stigmatised as stupid, or lazy, or greedy, or all three.  

Again, I have to disagree.  Smokers and drinkers are stigmatised as well.  Just think of the number of TV programmes about 'drunker Britain' or the amount of avertising that paints smokers as selfish or stupid...

To go along with the equal number of programmes about hilarious fat people.  I've never been shouted at by a stranger for holding a drink in my hand.  I've had a lot of total strangers comment on the size of my bottom.  

And as Zoidburg has very astutely pointed out, people are admiring and supportive of those who are trying to give up booze or fags.  If you translate Grub's comment "how could any fat person even be seen eating a kebab??" into the Battling the Bottle thread, it comes out as something like "how could someone with a booze problem even think about another beer??" which isn't in keeping with that thread at all.

[Sergeant Pluck]

It's a legitimate subject to debate but please be aware that weight is used as such a massive club to beat people with, particularly women, that a lot of us are very sensitive about it

I understand that and I hope I am mostly succeeding in my efforts to ensure that my comments are not interpreted as being directed at any specific person or group.

[Zoidburg]

I found the battling the bottle thread crossed a line from a few persons expressing real concern about their drinking to every bugger thinking that even their own moderate drink intake was the slippery slope to a park bench and a 3 litre bottle of cheap cider which in truth I found erring on the side of hysteria.

The same level of peer group pressure displayed toward diet has been met with resounding hostility possibly because weight concerns are an issue that apply to more of us than drink problems - and yes even a supportive thread can become peer group pressure if everyone sings from the same hym sheet.

I am not saying any one person is one hundred percent right or wrong but the polarisation in attitudes toward two problems which are the same in nature and cause is puzzling.

Someone will probably take offence now but the two threads are indeed in the same ball park.

Sorry.

[hellymedic]

There is the obvious major difference between many bad habits and eating. We can't totally give up eating and having to cope with food temptations all the time is difficult.
Giving up fags and booze totally may be simpler...

[Biggsy]

It's a legitimate subject to debate but please be aware that weight is used as such a massive club to beat people with, particularly women, that a lot of us are very sensitive about it

I understand that and I hope I am mostly succeeding in my efforts to ensure that my comments are not interpreted as being directed at any specific person or group.

That's not enough.  We see from this thread that it's taboo to even mention the general possibility of loosing weight because people feel their efforts are being insulted, no matter how much you say you know some people put a great deal of genuine effort into it.

[itsbruce]

But there was an extreme diet imposed until the mid 1950s - rationing.

There was nothing extreme about that diet: it worked out to 3000 calories per day for an adult male.  Compare that to the 2500 daily intake recommended for the typical adult male today (which he typically ignores, eating around 3100 calories with almost no exercise).  The restrictions imposed under rationing often made it a challenge to cook interesting food and few people liked having to eat less meat than they had been used to, but nobody was being starved.

[Exit Stage Left]

But there was an extreme diet imposed until the mid 1950s - rationing.

There was nothing extreme about that diet: it worked out to 3000 calories per day for an adult male.  Compare that to the 2500 daily intake recommended for the typical adult male today (which he typically ignores, eating around 3100 calories with almost no exercise).  The restrictions imposed under rationing often made it a challenge to cook interesting food and few people liked having to eat less meat than they had been used to, but nobody was being starved.

People also smoked like troopers, snack food was less accessible, you would reach for a Woodbine as a source of solace rather than raiding the fridge, which you didn't have anyway.
You can take your pick, fat people or folk with a hacking cough.

[citoyen]

If you're talking about what life was like in the 50s compared to now, it's worth considering that "fashionable" clothes weren't so widely available back then whatever your size. Clothes are incredibly cheap now compared to the 50s, thanks to cheap Chinese labour, and accordingly, fashion moves much quicker.

Back then, a man would buy a tailored suit, it would cost a small fortune and he'd make it last years. Now men can buy off-the-peg suits and they're cheap enough that you can buy a new one every couple of years.

The economies of mass-manufacture are the real reason for the lack of a wider range of sizes, not anti-fatty prejudice.

Sure, they could make clothes in a wider range of sizes, but then we'd all be paying much more for our clothes. It's all very well the medium-sized people being politically correct about not causing offence to larger people, but unless they're prepared to pay double or triple the price for their clothes, the less averagely shaped folk will never get the same range of choice as them.

d.

[rogerzilla]

People also smoked like troopers, snack food was less accessible, you would reach for a Woodbine as a source of solace rather than raiding the fridge, which you didn't have anyway.
You can take your pick, fat people or folk with a hacking cough.

Well...that's a false dichotomy unless you're a supermodel 

The thing that amazes me is:

1) media images of people (OK, women) are increasingly thin (and often Photoshopped as in this notorious example).  Everyone agrees this is a Bad Thing and that it pressures people to lose too much weight and feel bad about themselves.

2) yet the nation is inexorably getting fatter, with the exception of a few people who turn anorexic.  So is the pressure there, or is it there but doesn't have an impact on diet and exercise, just on emotions?

[hellymedic]

I think there is pressure but it's largely ignored. Fashion magazines sell a dream, like motor magazines.
Meanwhile, we are turning into a nation of lardy couch potatoes.
When did you last see a little girl with a skipping rope???

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

You can't let little girls go out and skip! They'll get paedocrimed!

[bobb]

When did you last see a little girl with a skipping rope???

Today. My neighbour's daughter. When her and her mates weren't wanging it around on their trampoline, they were skipping.

Why isn't trampolining on TV any more? Bring back World of Sport and Dickie Davis!! 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Little Cudzo has been asking for both a skipping rope and a trampoline. I'd be happy to get him both, but a trampoline seems a bit impractical atm.

1) media images of people (OK, women) are increasingly thin (and often Photoshopped as in this notorious example).  Everyone agrees this is a Bad Thing and that it pressures people to lose too much weight and feel bad about themselves.

That retouched photo - I'm sure I've seen the real being on a Scooby Doo film, where the aliens land in the Nevada desert. Definitely not human.