Author Topic: ride dates for permanent and DIY  (Read 10455 times)

Euan Uzami

ride dates for permanent and DIY
« on: November 25, 2010, 08:13:16 am »
Is it right that if I design and enter a DIY, that I have to nominate the date I will ride when entering, but for a permanent, I can enter it but then ride whenever the fancy takes me?

I thought that I had to nominate for either, but since packing the eureka I have been very kindly sent a permanent brevet card for it 'so I can ride it any time I want' in the future.

If it were possible to be able to do that with a DIY -i.e. design it and submit it for approval, get a brevet card, but then ride it whenever the weather looks good enough to i.e. not <2 deg c and potentially snowy/icy, then that would be a nice option.

As I interpret the rules I can't do this, but if I'm wrong please correct me...

If I can't, then is there anything to stop me designing my own permanent, i.e. submitting my DIY as a permanent in order to get round the rule of not being able to ride it at any time...?

(never done a DIY or permanent before...)
cheers

Martin

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2010, 08:34:10 am »
you can submit an entry to a DIY org by email or online entry the night before; or evn just before you roll out of the door; but for peace of mind make sure the controls are the correct minimum distance beforehand

Billy Weir

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2010, 08:42:37 am »
What you are observing is different practice rather than requirements.

AIUI, all entry forms must include a proposed date of riding. Subsequent changes notified to the organiser (before riding) are treated as amending the original entry form.  Where it becomes less clear is when the rider doesn't tell the organiser of a change of date - the organiser can refuse pass the brevet on for validation, albeit in reality organisers in this situation will be pragmatic and recognise your efforts (at least that I am aware of, albeit they might "pass comment" to ask that you tell them of a date change in future rides).

I'd interpret the Eureka organisers comments as giving you a steer as to what his attitude is.

mikewigley

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2010, 08:57:26 am »
I'd interpret the Eureka organisers comments as giving you a steer as to what his attitude is.

I'm happy for my riders to ride the Perm any time they like.  I'll include on my ride details an invitation to send me an email or text to let me know the actual ride date - and this could be sent just seconds before you set off

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2010, 09:45:11 am »
Is it right that if I design and enter a DIY, that I have to nominate the date I will ride when entering, but for a permanent, I can enter it but then ride whenever the fancy takes me?

Not quite.

The organiser of one Perm I've got stashed away told me that I MUST email him with my proposed date before riding otherwise he'll refuse to pass it on for validation.

All of the DIY organisers are strict about nominating dates in advance, not all of the Perm organisers are strict about nominating the dates.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2010, 10:18:29 am »
This is interesting.  I thought we were required to specify the date before ANY audax (but that an email immediately before starting was technically sufficient).  Looks as if I was perhaps wrong, though it might just be an interpretation thing.

Billy Weir

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2010, 11:31:30 am »
This is interesting.  I thought we were required to specify the date before ANY audax (but that an email immediately before starting was technically sufficient).  Looks as if I was perhaps wrong, though it might just be an interpretation thing.

You are right.

Confusion arises about because some organisers effectively turn a blind eye to rides being done on different dates to those notified.  Returns to the perm secretary do not need to enclose proof of entry, let alone proof that they rode on the right date!  It's a trust thing.

Whether that is ethically right or wrong is a moot point; it depends on your attitude.  What is probably more important is the potential for AUK event/3rd party insurance being invalidated if the rider has an accident whilst doing the ride.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2010, 11:54:03 am »
Billy has it exactly right in both his replies.

And the Eureka Organiser was being generous to a fault, IMO.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

mikewigley

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2010, 12:06:10 pm »
And the Eureka Organiser was being generous to a fault, IMO.

... but I doubt he's alone.  What do other Perm organisers require by way of advance notice of the ride date

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2010, 12:12:49 pm »
I was thinking more of
Quote
since packing the eureka I have been very kindly sent a permanent brevet card for it
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

MercuryKev

  • Maxin' n Audaxin'
Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2010, 12:17:40 pm »
I've entered plenty of perms and DIYs without offering a date for when I plan to ride the event.  It hasn't presented me with any difficulties and the organisers have never raised this as an issue. 

Martin

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2010, 09:03:04 am »
What is probably more important is the potential for AUK event/3rd party insurance being invalidated if the rider has an accident whilst doing the ride.

what if the rider is a CTC / BC member? if I had cause to need TPI on a perm (extremely unlikely) I'd probably go with insurance via the bigger organisation (who have their own full time appointed legal team) anyway.

can a rider actually claim against an organiser for an accident? it's a private excursion on a public highway, even more so on a perm. I thought the TPI was there in case a third party wanted to claim against a rider doing an AUK event (or the organiser if the event itself was "to blame"; e.g. berk drives 4x4 into a ditch because he didn't expect 50 cyclists to be coming the other way on a Sunday morning)

I feel another thread coming on

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2010, 10:14:44 am »
what if the rider is a CTC / BC member?

What if they aren't, is the (whole) point.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Billy Weir

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2010, 11:02:11 am »
And also the possible invalidation of AUK's insurance for organisers.  A safe course of action for an organiser, imo, is to require notification of when members intend to ride.  I suspect it is unwise to tell a rider "ride it whenever you want and just send the card into me afterwards".

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2010, 11:30:13 am »
Surely this strikes at the very heart of what an audax is?

What differentiates an audax from "just another long ride" is the committment to complete it at a particular time.  There should be the same requirement on a perm (of any flavour) as there is on a calendar event, else they cannot be considered equal.  The ability to make the committment moments before you start is stretching it (and yes, I've used that facility, though not less than 12 hours ahead), but to be able to start, fail to finish and try again another day and call it the same ride is a step too far.

The insurance is a side issue.

IMHO.

Martin

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2010, 11:58:40 am »
Surely this strikes at the very heart of what an audax is?

What differentiates an audax from "just another long ride" is the committment to complete it at a particular time.  There should be the same requirement on a perm (of any flavour) as there is on a calendar event, else they cannot be considered equal.  The ability to make the committment moments before you start is stretching it (and yes, I've used that facility, though not less than 12 hours ahead), but to be able to start, fail to finish and try again another day and call it the same ride is a step too far.
IMHO.

I can see this side of the argument; but I certainly don't chase up DIY cards (paper or electronic) that ended up not being sent back because the rider DNS or DNF'd on the day they proposed riding; many of my paper DIY customers are still using up cards sold by the previous org and I've no idea how many are out there.

we need to get this formalised; I require a DIY entry prior to the rider starting a ride. If I need to specify an agreed date (even if it's the same day as the entry) for insurance purposes so be it, but it needs to be across the board for all perms.

Euan Uzami

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2010, 12:13:04 pm »
Surely this strikes at the very heart of what an audax is?

What differentiates an audax from "just another long ride" is the committment to complete it at a particular time.  There should be the same requirement on a perm (of any flavour) as there is on a calendar event, else they cannot be considered equal.  The ability to make the committment moments before you start is stretching it (and yes, I've used that facility, though not less than 12 hours ahead), but to be able to start, fail to finish and try again another day and call it the same ride is a step too far.

The insurance is a side issue.

IMHO.


that's what i thought, too - that the spirit of audax included the requirement to commit to a certain date.
I can empathise with the sentiment behind it, too - you don't just 'nip out when it looks a nice day', which is a slippery slope that could result in any ad hoc ride, sportives, tours, raids, and even commutes being logged as audaxes.
In other words, audax is not for the fair-weather cyclist (or at least shouldn't be geared towards helping them), but, I was wondering if the rules were to be bent because of the fact that ice is different to other bad weather in that it is actually dangerous rather than just requires more endurance.
I'm not expecting such a bending of the rules to suit myself I should add, but I just thought if there already is, and others are taking advantage of it, then I might as well too.
However neither is there a rule that any randonnee must also be an audax ;) so I'll probably just plan to head out for one anyway when the roads don't look too dicy but not bother with logging it as an audax.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2010, 12:55:38 pm »
I reckon we should have a 48hr notice rule. This is typically about the same length notice that employed AUKs need to get a day off, thus levelling the playing-field wrt to retired points-baggers.

;)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2010, 01:05:20 pm »
Last year no-one rode Poor Student on the day because of the weather.  Mr Organiser Bew obtained permission for entrants to ride it as a perm at a later date - it did not appear to be an automatic concession.  This seems to me to be a sensible way to acknowledge that sometimes weather conditions between November and March do make it not sensible to ride.  I gather other organisers have done similar.

But this shouldn't remove the need to specify a date before starting it.

Matt's idea of a 48-hour rule seems sensible.

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2010, 02:58:07 pm »
But this shouldn't remove the need to specify a date before starting it.

Matt's idea of a 48-hour rule seems sensible.

I have to say I disagree. I want to do a DIY 200 this weekend, a 48-hr rule would have meant that I had to nominate the day on Thursday, and I had no idea of what the weather was going to be like by then. I still don't know whether I am going to go for Saturday or Sunday.

Let's not take our eye off the ball - we want to ENCOURAGE people to cycle as much as possible. Nominating the night before seems adequate to me, and it seems that at least some DIY organisers agree, including mine, thankfully. I was recently reading a sportive vs audax thread on another board and people were commenting that they perceived audaxing as a bit "beardy" and bureaucratic...things like this wouldn't help our cause.
Next Rides: Poor Student, Willy Warmer?

"There are proven ways; play on the certain knowledge of their superiority, the mystique of secret covenant, the esprit of shared suffering"

MercuryKev

  • Maxin' n Audaxin'
Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2010, 03:15:10 pm »
the spirit of audax included the requirement to commit to a certain date.

So are you saying that if you planned to ride a 600 perm on a certain date but work commitments prevented you doing so, therefore, you rode it the following weekend, it would be less of an achievement?  Or are you saying that you'd have to buy a new card and bin the one you had sitting there?

I thought that audax was about riding a certain distance within a defined time limit.  No point being pedantic about it.

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2010, 03:39:15 pm »
But this shouldn't remove the need to specify a date before starting it.

Matt's idea of a 48-hour rule seems sensible.

I have to say I disagree. I want to do a DIY 200 this weekend, a 48-hr rule would have meant that I had to nominate the day on Thursday, and I had no idea of what the weather was going to be like by then. I still don't know whether I am going to go for Saturday or Sunday.

Let's not take our eye off the ball - we want to ENCOURAGE people to cycle as much as possible. Nominating the night before seems adequate to me, and it seems that at least some DIY organisers agree, including mine, thankfully. I was recently reading a sportive vs audax thread on another board and people were commenting that they perceived audaxing as a bit "beardy" and bureaucratic...things like this wouldn't help our cause.

48 hours, 24 hours, doesn't really matter greatly.  And either would have presented me with a minor problem with my last perm - I spent most of the night before dealing with a break-in in my office, so had to delay by a week.  But you don't get any such choice with calendar events.  And I don't recall reading about DIY Sportives.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2010, 03:52:00 pm »
Some overseas randonneuring organisations are a lot more restrictive than AUK. RUSA require both a start date and start time when a rider enters a permanent. I think that is overly officious. RUSA: Rules for Permanent Riders
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2010, 04:32:50 pm »
I thought that audax was about riding a certain distance within a defined time limit.  No point being pedantic about it.
We could debate for pages about the "spirit" of audax (or ethos!).

But riding an AUK Audax is about riding to AUK rules, which involves quite a lot of pedantry!

If you don't want that baggage, just ride your 200k (300, 400 ... ) without entering a perm. You'll save time gathering brevidence  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: ride dates for permanent and DIY
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2010, 05:07:03 pm »
In other words, audax is not for the fair-weather cyclist (or at least shouldn't be geared towards helping them),

I look forward to your company on a 600 this coming January then.
It'll be good practice for PBP. :thumbsup:
(But I won't be riding if it's icy, cos I'm a coward and in all honesty, a fair weather cyclist as I do most of my miles in the summer. :P)

I thought that audax was about riding a certain distance within a defined time limit.  No point being pedantic about it.
We could debate for pages about the "spirit" of audax (or ethos!).


Yes. I always take it to mean that they don't agree with it and try to use that phrase to back it up by implying that everyone in AUK thinks the same. Any long distance cycling is good IMO. It doesn't have to be anything more than that.

Quote
If you don't want that baggage, just ride your 200k (300, 400 ... ) without entering a perm. You'll save time gathering brevidence  :thumbsup:
And you can go where you like or change route on a whim. It's actualy quite a tough thing to do without the commitment of an entry form and brevet card. Ever so easy to not bother or crawl into a B&B if it gets a bit tough going, so in that respect, AUK rides really do help to get people doing the extra miles. Audax rides have certainly got me doing more miles than I would have done and being able to enter DIYs a few days before I rode made a very big difference to getting me out on the ride in the first place.