Author Topic: Re: Mice in our kitchen  (Read 5345 times)

Rapples

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2010, 02:17:46 pm »
If the way of the second person is cruel, or done for reasons of enjoyment, then I'd suggest that it's open to criticism.

I'd agree with the first part, but the enjoyment part is really rather subjective, and yes it's been done to death in POBI.

I'm questioning the inconsistency in peoples attitude to methods of killing and what is considered cruel depending on their personal circumstances.  Wow and many on others have condoned a rather barbaric form of killing a small mammal, as neccessary, and therefore presumably justified in those circumstances.  However, when the situation doesn't affect them they see far more humane ways of controlling as cruel and barbaric.

You for example consider using hounds to flush a fox from cover and to chase and catch it to then eat it as totally unacceptable, fine.  We are all entitled to our opinions.

However
We had an small invasion of woodmice in the garage at the last house one winter - again, letting the cats in there stopped them returning.

Explain to me how this is different in the desired objective and likely outcome to a huntsman letting a couple of hounds into a covert to flush out a fox?

border-rider

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2010, 02:26:39 pm »
I'm questioning the inconsistency in peoples attitude* to methods of killing and what is considered cruel depending on their personal circumstances.  Wow and many on others have condoned a rather barbaric form of killing a small mammal, as neccessary, and therefore presumably justified in those circumstances.  However, when the situation doesn't affect them they see far more humane ways of controlling as cruel and barbaric.

No, you're just trying to map a debate about how to get rid of mice onto an excuse for hunting foxes with dogs.  It doesn't fit.  You know that, I know that, everyone knows that.  You could try the same mapping exercise with euthenasia or with food animals.  Still it wouldn't fit.


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However
We had an small invasion of woodmice in the garage at the last house one winter - again, letting the cats in there stopped them returning.

Explain to me how this is different in the desired objective and likely outcome to a huntsman letting a couple of hounds into a covert to flush out a fox?

I don't do it for fun.  

I also tried to make sure that it was a deterrent rather than an execution.



*edit: but yes, agreed, people do have inconsistent attitudes to animal suffering.  People will eat meat and object to hunting; people will hunt and will love their own pets; people will eat dairy and eggs but not meat. Somewhere a line is drawn for most people; me I'd draw it somewhere this side of getting kicks from an activity that is predicated on chasing an animal to the point of exhaustion and tearing it apart.

Rapples

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2010, 02:43:38 pm »
I'm questioning the inconsistency in peoples attitude* to methods of killing and what is considered cruel depending on their personal circumstances.  Wow and many on others have condoned a rather barbaric form of killing a small mammal, as neccessary, and therefore presumably justified in those circumstances.  However, when the situation doesn't affect them they see far more humane ways of controlling as cruel and barbaric.

No, you're just trying to map a debate about how to get rid of mice onto an excuse for hunting foxes with dogs.
No, it's unfortunate that we keep getting sidetracked into the debate about whether hunting is cruel, but that is where the inconsistency or hypocrisy lies.

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It doesn't fit.  You know that, I know that, everyone knows that.  You could try the same mapping exercise with euthenasia or with food animals.  Still it wouldn't fit.

well you are again assuming you know what I think and indeed what everybody thinks, and that they share your opinion.

I've given a direct comparison where it does fit here
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However
We had an small invasion of woodmice in the garage at the last house one winter - again, letting the cats in there stopped them returning.

Explain to me how this is different in the desired objective and likely outcome to a huntsman letting a couple of hounds into a covert to flush out a fox?

I don't do it for fun.


I don't see what you state of mind, miserable or happy has to do with the objective or outcome 

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I'd draw it somewhere this side of getting kicks from an activity that is predicated on chasing an animal to the point of exhaustion and tearing it apart.

Let's no go there again, although I note you no longer include "whilst still alive" O:-)

Adam

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Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2010, 02:45:26 pm »
Rapples has stated several times he doesn't hunt for fun.

Therefore, either he doesn't actually participate in hunting, or he does participate but doesn't get actual enjoyment out of it.  In the same way Wowbagger doesn't get enjoyment from dispatching his mice, but sees it as a thing to be done.  
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

border-rider

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2010, 02:55:51 pm »
Rapples has stated several times he doesn't hunt for fun.

Therefore, either he doesn't actually participate in hunting, or he does participate but doesn't get actual enjoyment out of it.  

Mmm

It's not terribly convincing, is it ?

border-rider

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2010, 03:00:15 pm »
No, it's unfortunate that we keep getting sidetracked into the debate about whether hunting is cruel, but that is where the inconsistency or hypocrisy lies.

On your part, for sure. You say that chasing animals to the point of exhaustion and then having them torn apart by dogs whilst still alive is not cruel.  How can it be anything other ?

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well you are again assuming you know what I think and indeed what everybody thinks, and that they share your opinion.

Just stating the obvious.  Your agenda is pretty clear.

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I don't see what you state of mind, miserable or happy has to do with the objective or outcome

I'm not doing it for fun.  That addresses objective. Outcome is addressed by

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I also tried to make sure that it was a deterrent rather than an execution.

I note you no longer include "whilst still alive"

thanks.  I'd missed that bit.

Rapples

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2010, 03:05:38 pm »
Rapples has stated several times he doesn't hunt for fun.

Actually Adam I've repeatedly stated  I do not kill foxes for fun, or obtain any enjoyment from the actual death of the animal ;)
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Therefore he does participate but doesn't get actual enjoyment out of itthe death.  In the same way Wowbagger doesn't get enjoyment from dispatching his mice, but sees it as a thing to be done.  

FTFY

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
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Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2010, 03:07:42 pm »
Rapples has stated several times he doesn't hunt for fun.

Therefore, either he doesn't actually participate in hunting, or he does participate but doesn't get actual enjoyment out of it.  

Mmm

It's not terribly convincing, is it ?

I can see the case for that line of thinking.  It's not one I'd go along with, but certainly having seen a number of hunt leaders interviewed, some do seem to see it as "something to be done" rather than a sport.  So if there's no emotional attachment, then I'd tend to agree with Rapples argument that there's not a lot of difference between killing a mouse and a fox.

I'd prefer no killing of mice personally, which is why I've only ever used the humane traps and released the mice outside in the countryside.

However, as you pointed out


agreed, people do have inconsistent attitudes to animal suffering.  People will eat meat and object to hunting; people will hunt and will love their own pets; people will eat dairy and eggs but not meat. Somewhere a line is drawn for most people; me I'd draw it somewhere this side of getting kicks from an activity that is predicated on chasing an animal to the point of exhaustion and tearing it apart.


In the same way, people have different acceptence levels for lots of things.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2010, 03:08:28 pm »
So, Rapples, if it's only the hunt you want, you'll be quite happy without chasing a fox.  So, of course, you have no reason to oppose the law as it stands.
Getting there...

border-rider

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2010, 03:08:43 pm »
Rapples has stated several times he doesn't hunt for fun.

Actually Adam I've repeatedly stated  I do not kill foxes for fun, or obtain any enjoyment from the actual death of the animal ;)
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Therefore he does participate but doesn't get actual enjoyment out of itthe death.  In the same way Wowbagger doesn't get enjoyment from dispatching his mice, but sees it as a thing to be done.  

FTFY

Indeed - we've discussed this at some length.  It's pleasure gained from an activity predicated on cruel death.

border-rider

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2010, 03:12:29 pm »
I can see the case for that line of thinking.  It's not one I'd go along with, but certainly having seen a number of hunt leaders interviewed, some do seem to see it as "something to be done" rather than a sport.  So if there's no emotional attachment, then I'd tend to agree with Rapples argument that there's not a lot of difference between killing a mouse and a fox.

Except that Rapples has made it clear that he does hunt for enjoyment.  Hunting with hounds makes no serious inroads into fox numbers; the excuse that it's effective vermin  control is just that: an excuse.

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In the same way, people have different acceptence levels for lots of things.

They do.  Which is why I don't rage against meat eating, or mouse control per se, even though neither is my cup of tea, but will object to the cruel aspects of those - and of hunting.  I think there is consistency there, which is what Rapples is denying.

Rapples

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2010, 03:14:06 pm »
On your part, for sure. You say that chasing animals to the point of exhaustion and then having them torn apart by dogs whilst still alive is not cruel.  How can it be anything other ?

Well if it's the case for dogs and foxes, it surely is for cats and mice, especially so if the cats are encouraged by humans into the garage.

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I don't see what your state of mind, miserable or happy has to do with the objective or outcome

I'm not doing it for fun.  That addresses objective.

I disagree the objective is surely to remove the mice.


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Outcome is addressed by

I also tried to make sure that it was a deterrent rather than an execution.

That's the sport though isn't it?

Giving the prey a sporting chance of escape, or did youmake sure the mice weren't in the garage before releasing the cats?

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2010, 03:17:12 pm »
I don't think that he spent time & effort ensuring that there would be enough mice for the cats to chase...
Getting there...

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2010, 03:18:21 pm »
Just wondering, Rapples, if you are doing this for a bet?  No one else can so consistently derail threads onto their pet topic and then be completely obtuse about it.

It's a talent.

Of a sort.
Getting there...

border-rider

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2010, 03:19:07 pm »
Well if it's the case for dogs and foxes, it surely is for cats and mice, especially so if the cats are encouraged by humans into the garage

Mmm.  But again, I'm not doing it for fun.  And again I'd tried to be careful to make sure it was deterrent. I think I mentioned that.  


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I'm not doing it for fun.  That addresses objective.

I disagree the objective is surely to remove the mice.

My objective is not fun.

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That's the sport though isn't it?

No.  That's the point.

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Giving the prey a sporting chance of escape, or did youmake sure the mice weren't in the garage before releasing the cats?


I did

I investigated myself in winter/early spring when they moved in, found a couple of nests with babies in the garage. I moved them to a warm (or as warm as the garage) shed and then left well alone.

In the summer I investigated again, made sure they'd all moved back outside (as woodmice do; there's not much to eat in a garage) then put a catflap in the door.  I wasn't aware of any mousy deaths as a result of my activities; had there been it would have been unfortunate and something I'd have wanted to avoid.

border-rider

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2010, 03:22:05 pm »
Just wondering, Rapples, if you are doing this for a bet?  No one else can so consistently derail threads onto their pet topic and then be completely obtuse about it.

It's a talent.

Of a sort.

He's playing a game ;)

It helps to pass a cold winter's afternoon between my run in the hills and the pub quiz tonight.  It's of no more consequence than that.

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
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Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2010, 03:45:45 pm »
Completely O/T, I was just looking at a recruitment agency web site, to show my son some details about medical research, as he's suggested that as something he might like to consider when he's older (currently aged 13). 

Down the right hand side was an advert from B&Q, showing mouse traps.  Insidious!
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Julian

  • samoture
Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2010, 08:07:11 pm »

You said "an animal."  Not vermin.  Animals.

I did, but we are clearly discussing the issue of vermin a method of killing that is not covered by animal cruelty laws ::-)
 
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And the court reports didn't mention mental health.  Apparently he was drunk.

I'd respectfully suggest that many hamster owners get very drunk from time to time.  As far as I'm aware they don't all go about microwaving their pets.  :P

You missed the vital part of that post.  What was your view on microwaving mice again? 

Rapples

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2010, 06:56:09 am »

He's playing a game ;)

Aren't we all?

All the world's a stage, my yellow stockinged friend ;)

However, dismissing me as a troll is convenient for you, as it lets you side step the argument of your own hypocrisy.

I remarked how many on this forum were happy to use a barbaric method of killing mice, and rejoice at the success in killing a small mammal they consider vermin in a circumstance they consider neccessary or maybe even vital.

I have pointed out that you are as guilty as a huntsman in the respect of introducing predators into an environment with the objective of hunting and chasing a smaller animal, to tear it apart, whether that be your garage or garden, (there are no health issues there mon ami), and your demeanour in doing it are of no consequence to the likely outcome for the mouse, bird or fox for that matter.

Yet that is both your defence and your argument against hunting. the aspect of whether it is the killing that is done for fun.  So it's OK for you to do, but not me because you believe I enjoy the killing.

If that is the case I must indeed be a sick person who relishes the death of animals in an almost primeval way, or so stupid that I cannot comprehend what you believe to be the reality of what actually happens.


The truth that is blindingly obvious, is the objection is nothing to do with animal cruelty, that is a mere sideshow.  That is why the argument never gets anywhere.

Clarion, and Wowbagger have alluded to real issue upthread, it is the dressing up and ritual aspect that they object to; the pageantry.

It's a very blatant reminder of the days of the The Lord of the Manor, and cap doffing.  It's why the proletariat hate it so much.  It is part of what divides society, those who love tradition and those who hate it and want a different society.

So Clarion, yes, every time someone has a pop at me for animal cruelty I will respond, and if I can point out their own hypocrisy on the issue I will.

Rapples

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2010, 06:59:01 am »

You missed the vital part of that post.  What was your view on microwaving mice again? 

Well I as you were good enough to confirm that you are a person who thinks it is socially acceptable to mock, ridicule and be offensive to those in society who do not share your views and are different from you, and may suffer mental health issues, I suppose I owe you an answer.

My views on microwaving small rodents are inconclusive.  I have done no research on the matter, and apart from the uncontrolled experiment by this deluded drunk of which I have no knowledge, I am not aware of any other research in this field.

Microwaving may in fact prove to be a relatively humane way of inducing death in small vermin, or unwanted birds for that matter, but I doubt it. In  the USA electrocution is considered humane, but I remain unconvinced for example.

So for the time being I will avoid using it as a method, in the unlikely event of me wishing to  induce death in any animal small enough to fit inside my own domestic model.  I'd also strongly advise others to do the same.

HTH :-*

If you want a serious answer, try asking serious questions ;)

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2010, 09:32:22 am »

You missed the vital part of that post.  What was your view on microwaving mice again? 

Well I suppose as you were good enough to confirm that you are a person who thinks it is socially acceptable to mock, ridicule and be offensive to those in society who do not share your views and are different from you, and may suffer mental health issues, I suppose I owe you an answer.

My views on microwaving small rodents are inconclusive.  I have done no research on the matter, and apart from the uncontrolled experiment by this deluded drunk of which I have no knowledge, I am not aware of any other research in this field.

If you want a serious answer, try asking serious questions ;)

Another elegant, coherent and  to me amusing reply from Rapples.

Well said :thumbsup:
"100% PURE FREAKING AWESOME"

Clandy

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2010, 10:24:48 am »
  It's why the proletariat hate it so much.  It is part of what divides society, those who love tradition and those who hate it and want a different society.

Bullshit. If tradition includes getting your rocks off terrorising and tearing apart a harmless wild animal, then that is a tradition we can easily lose in a civilised world.

border-rider

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2010, 01:19:22 pm »
However, dismissing me as a troll is convenient for you, as it lets you side step the argument of your own hypocrisy.

The  accusation of hypocrisy is a fail, because it's based on the equivalence of putting a catflap in a garage door with hunting foxes with dogs.  Clearly absurd.

I've explained a number of times now why the two are not equivalent. Not sure how that equates to sidestepping. In fact, it clearly doesn't.

The playing of games is what you once told me you were on this forum for. I'm just using your own words. 

So actually : no hypocrisy, no sidestepping and no dismissing you as a troll  :thumbsup:

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I have pointed out that you are as guilty as a huntsman in the respect of introducing predators into an environment with the objective of hunting and chasing a smaller animal, at matter.

Not only did I not do that, but I regretted any possibility that harm might occur, and went out of my way to minimise the risk of that. The objective, as I wrote before, was deterrence of the mices' return.  Not their death.

So that's quite unlike hunting foxes with dogs.  And demeanour matters - of course it does.  If one has to have a loved pet put down, for example, one does it with love, solemnity and great sadness. Not dressed up in fancy clothes, whooping, hollering and celebrating the death, making it a lovely day out for the family.  

So it differs in action, in outcome, in objective and in demeanour. Apart from that, a perfect fit  ;D

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The truth that is blindingly obvious, is the objection is nothing to do with animal cruelty, that is a mere sideshow.

Cruelty a sideshow to hunting ? Well, nice of you to finally admit that it's a component.  Now accept that it's the basis of the activity and you may have a cleaner soul ;)


Panoramix

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Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2010, 01:22:52 pm »



border-rider

Re: Mice in our kitchen
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2010, 02:44:26 pm »
 It's why the proletariat hate it so much.  It is part of what divides society, those who love tradition and those who hate it and want a different society.

Bullshit. If tradition includes getting your rocks off terrorising and tearing apart a harmless wild animal, then that is a tradition we can easily lose in a civilised world.

Indeed.

The spectacle that passes for fox-hunting these days is probably less traditional than bear-bating, cock-fighting or child prostitution.  There are many of use that love real tradition, but hate barbarity.  Sometimes it is necessary to move on and leave barbarity behind, though :)

The proles vs toffs thing is guff; the Countryside Alliance spent a packet on posters telling us just that, with lots of pictures of hunting plumbers and nurses, so it must be true; it's interesting, though, that you/they then wheel out that as an attack.  Either very confused, or playing games ;)

I'm not sure why it's so very hard to understand that many people have a dislike of an activity that involves a jolly day chasing animals to the point of exhaustion and then tearing them apart (whilst still alive). There's really no deeper sociological analysis needed.