Author Topic: Is autoroute accurate?  (Read 10446 times)

Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2010, 09:13:56 am »
You are saying you will earn points if you submit a route that Autoroute calculates to be 200+km.

I will see your pedantry, and raise it to nitpicky level 9, by this modification:

He's saying you will earn points if he says your route is at least 200km. Period. This judgement may or may not be based on Autoroute. He's the Organiser - and what he says, goes.

What you actually ride on the day is completely irrelevant.

Martin

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2010, 09:21:55 am »
He's saying you will earn points if he says your route is at least 200km. Period. This judgement may or may not be based on Autoroute. He's the Organiser - and what he says, goes.

this is true; but we are riders too, it's not very satisfactory to send riders massively overdistance when they only want to ride 200km. This is where we enter into a dialogue over the route; suggest slight alternative or extra controls in order to bring the route up to scratch. This is actually easy with AR as we can just scratch one control and lob another in and recalculate.

I consider this to be part of the service I should provide as a DIY org, but given enough notice and within reason.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2010, 09:27:16 am »
[
...What I'm saying is that if a situation should arise for a rider where a safe and workable route comes out at 199.5km and the next best alternative is at least say, 220km, then allowing the ride is a lesser evil than prohibiting it and causing the rider not to ride at all...

No one's prohibiting anything.  We're saying you'll earn points if you ride 200+km.


What Ian is saying is perfectly clear.

If you want to ride BR distances and have concerns about riding overdistance Perms, the way forward is to buy a GPS. That way you can ride from home and so include the distance from your house to the nearest co-op/ATM or wherever you would normally start/finish a ride to claim that elusive 500m to bring your route up to 200km 'Shortest Distance By Controls, except riding additional distance will no longer be an issue because you can now reposition/add additional controls as required to trim the overall 'on the road' route down to 200.5km, whatever, as you see fit.

ISTM this is the very behaviour he would discourage but so be it.

mattc

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2010, 09:31:35 am »
I'm thinking of various contributors who have expressed the view that if a proposed route falls short of nominal by x00 metres it's unconditionally ruled out; i.e. the rules are absolute, are sacrosanct and are more important than the ride.
The rules are what make it an Audax. If you want to ride your bike, just do it. If you want AUK points, read the rules.


Of course this thread was supposed to be about the accuracy of Autoroute, not all this other stuff that is being discussed in 3 other threads - sorry Panoramix.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

DanialW

Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2010, 09:49:07 am »
The rules are what make it an Audax. If you want to ride your bike, just do it. If you want AUK points, read the rules.

Well said.

Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2010, 09:55:07 am »
The ones I struggle with are where, as Zoom says, the proposed route is shorter than it needs to be or the "shortest" is a Motorway.

For those that don't know, Autoroute has an 'Avoid Area' function. If AR is insisting on showing the shortest route as via a motorway (for example) zoom into the map to to show the joining junction, right click and 'select' an area including the junction, then right click on the framed area to get a submenu, select 'avoid area' then refresh the route directions.

HTH

But don't DIY distances have to accept the shortest route, even if it is by motorway?

Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2010, 09:57:16 am »
The ones I struggle with are where, as Zoom says, the proposed route is shorter than it needs to be or the "shortest" is a Motorway.

For those that don't know, Autoroute has an 'Avoid Area' function. If AR is insisting on showing the shortest route as via a motorway (for example) zoom into the map to to show the joining junction, right click and 'select' an area including the junction, then right click on the framed area to get a submenu, select 'avoid area' then refresh the route directions.

HTH

But don't DIY distances have to accept the shortest route, even if it is by motorway?

No - it's shortest route by bike.

Martin

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2010, 10:27:02 am »
here's a couple of foibles from my own event;

to get from Balcombe church to Brightwell Farm the shortest route by road is to go up to the top of Brantridge Lane; both AR and VM suggest you go up that track past Westup Farm and then down the private road past White House


Streetmap - Maps and directions for the whole of Great Britain+[City/Town/Village]&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf

and here; Ditchling to Streat; not via the road but via Hayleigh Farm;
all sorted via a couple of emails with Jackie P  :)

Streetmap - Maps and directions for the whole of Great Britain+[City/Town/Village]&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf

so in addition to a GPS a copy of AR or just a bit of time on VM would solve a lot of these problems

mattc

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2010, 10:35:41 am »
here's a couple of foibles from my own event;

to get from Balcombe church to Brightwell Farm the shortest route by road is to go up to the top of Brantridge Lane; both AR and VM suggest you go up that track past Westup Farm and then down the private road past White House


Streetmap - Maps and directions for the whole of Great Britain+[City/Town/Village]&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf

and here; Ditchling to Streat; not via the road but via Hayleigh Farm;
all sorted via a couple of emails with Jackie P  :)

Streetmap - Maps and directions for the whole of Great Britain+[City/Town/Village]&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf

so in addition to a GPS a copy of AR or just a bit of time on VM would solve a lot of these problems

Zoom:
Sorry, but I can't piece together all the bits of your puzzle. It looks to me like you're saying that AR's shortest route in the first case is a bridleway on the OS map (so legal for a bicycle).

This seems like a whole separate sub-issue; it's my view that we should only be required to use public roads - if we find a cycle-track or usable bridleway shortcut, that's just a bonus :)  [unless it's a Ruff Stuff event!] If the official position is different, fair enough, but it makes this stuff more complicated.

(Yes, I'm aware that a lot of calendar events use cycle-tracks, and loads of DIY's will have used the Severn Bridge "shortcut" along the side of a motorway - commonsense has to be applied at some point ;) )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2010, 11:02:48 am »
Zoom: Sorry, but I can't piece together all the bits of your puzzle. It looks to me like you're saying that AR's shortest route in the first case is a bridleway on the OS map (so legal for a bicycle).

This seems like a whole separate sub-issue; it's my view that we should only be required to use public roads - if we find a cycle-track or usable bridleway shortcut, that's just a bonus :)  [unless it's a Ruff Stuff event!] If the official position is different, fair enough, but it makes this stuff more complicated.

(Yes, I'm aware that a lot of calendar events use cycle-tracks, and loads of DIY's will have used the Severn Bridge "shortcut" along the side of a motorway - commonsense has to be applied at some point ;) )

Some of the most 'fun' bits of an Audax are where you turn off the public highway to take some hidden shortcut, ref: 'The Hole in the Hedge'  manouvre in Maidenhead on the Willy Warmer, and I hardly think AR/VM would voluntarily send you across the river crossing at Hambleden Lock on the SBWW.

That's the other side of the GPS coin, I guess. Such 'short cuts' would be invisible to a regular Brevidence perm and a GPS perm at the route validation stage, but might well cause the final submitted GPS track to come up short unless the rider had allowed for it.  

I'd agree that there can be no requirement/expectation that riders will use 'off road' shortcuts which may be shorter but not necessaily faster (anybody who has taken a 'short cut' over a gert big hill can vouch for that).

Martin

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2010, 11:13:18 am »
This seems like a whole separate sub-issue; it's my view that we should only be required to use public roads - if we find a cycle-track or usable bridleway shortcut, that's just a bonus :)

But that's an OS map link; AR should not list bridleways as it's a driving programme  ???

my point was that whoever compiled AR did not have an up to date list of actual roads, and obvious errors like this need to be pointed out. But the onus is on the rider, not the DIY org.

mattc

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2010, 11:21:29 am »

This seems like a whole separate sub-issue; it's my view that we should only be required to use public roads - if we find a cycle-track or usable bridleway shortcut, that's just a bonus :)

But that's an OS map link; AR should not list bridleways as it's a driving programme  ???

my point was that whoever compiled AR did not have an up to date list of actual roads, and obvious errors like this need to be pointed out. But the onus is on the rider, not the DIY org.
Ah, righty-ho. I think we're in agreement then.

So what this example shows is that AR is probably spot-on at measuring distance - unfortunately it may not always pick an appropriate route to measure!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2010, 02:42:57 pm »
More likely a one-way street or no-right-turn.

frankly frankie

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2010, 02:53:45 pm »
my Jan 29 event: 157km with no AAA points. The Glastonbury 100 miler.

IRONY!!  I saw what you did there.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Jaded

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2010, 02:59:05 pm »
so in addition to a GPS a copy of AR or just a bit of time on VM would solve a lot of these problems


And a copy of Windows and a computer to run it on.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

TOBY

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2010, 03:02:07 pm »
so in addition to a GPS a copy of AR or just a bit of time on VM would solve a lot of these problems


And a copy of Windows and a computer to run it on.

if you want Mac based cycling you'll need to ride a sportive  :)

Jaded

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  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2010, 03:08:05 pm »
 ;D
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

frankly frankie

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2010, 03:10:00 pm »
I am aware of a DIY route that was submitted and agreed @ 203k. When the rider came to submit the same ride but in the opposite direction he was told it only measured 201k. Not a problem and both rides were done.

They were "circular" routes rather than out and backs measured on the same copy of AR. So does AR have  something in it that treats the same route ridden anticlockwise from one ridden clockwise.

1-way systems and even large roundabouts will contribute to this effect.

This is why I think its rather unfortunate that the accumulated wisdom when using Google Maps for distance-checking is to switch it to 'Walking' mode - which gives slightly under-distance results.
Driving mode and 'avoid highways' and 'show alternatives' is the best way to use Google Maps IMO.
There is (or will be) a Cycling mode but that won't be much use to us - think of it as a Sustrans mode ...

And Google Maps is cross-platform, and I honestly feel is far superior to Autoroute in every way, I just wish the powers that be would make this the officially-sanctioned tool.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

mattc

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2010, 05:52:32 pm »
... So does AR have  something in it that treats the same route ridden anticlockwise from one ridden clockwise.

1-way systems and even large roundabouts will contribute to this effect.

This is why I think its rather unfortunate that the accumulated wisdom when using Google Maps for distance-checking is to switch it to 'Walking' mode - which gives slightly under-distance results.
Driving mode and 'avoid highways' and 'show alternatives' is the best way to use Google Maps IMO.
As a rider I use "Walking" precisely because it often under-reads!

(A-road junctions with limited access will also contribute - I guess they are effectively big no-entries.)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2010, 07:23:44 pm »
I am aware of a DIY route that was submitted and agreed @ 203k. When the rider came to submit the same ride but in the opposite direction he was told it only measured 201k. Not a problem and both rides were done.

They were "circular" routes rather than out and backs measured on the same copy of AR. So does AR have  something in it that treats the same route ridden anticlockwise from one ridden clockwise.

1-way systems and even large roundabouts will contribute to this effect.

This is why I think its rather unfortunate that the accumulated wisdom when using Google Maps for distance-checking is to switch it to 'Walking' mode - which gives slightly under-distance results.
Driving mode and 'avoid highways' and 'show alternatives' is the best way to use Google Maps IMO.
There is (or will be) a Cycling mode but that won't be much use to us - think of it as a Sustrans mode ...

And Google Maps is cross-platform, and I honestly feel is far superior to Autoroute in every way, I just wish the powers that be would make this the officially-sanctioned tool.
I like Google maps and use it alot. Driving Mode Avoiding Highways is quite rubbish. It will NOT make a route over the A15 across the Humber Bridge despite it being and A road. It avoid the A64 too.
Google Maps

EDIT: I take it back, by pulling the route to the middle of the bridge Google kindly permits it. Thank heavens for GPS control proof of passage because there is nothing in the middle of the bridge for a stamp or receipt !!!!! and going via Goole is a huge detour, (just notice Goole and Google are similar)

Martin

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2010, 12:49:34 pm »
something that's just been pointed out to me;

viamichelin now allows 5 intermediate points to be placed into a route and also allows cycle routes over 200km.

I would propose that viamichelin therefore becomes the new standard for riders and DIY orgs to measure minimum distances with 7 controls or less as it does not require snazzy up to date programmes; and enables a pre-defined route by controls to be emailed  :thumbsup:

Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2010, 01:11:06 pm »
something that's just been pointed out to me;

viamichelin now allows 5 intermediate points to be placed into a route and also allows cycle routes over 200km.

Have you tried it though? Seems to be broken.

It fails for me when I try to add a 2nd intermediate point, it comes up with an error that 'pedestrian routes calculated by via michelin cannot exceed 50km' (yes, I'd selected cycle mode but it seems to forget that then prevent me from switching to cycling mode at all).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Martin

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Re: Is autoroute accurate?
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2010, 01:17:41 pm »
something that's just been pointed out to me;

viamichelin now allows 5 intermediate points to be placed into a route and also allows cycle routes over 200km.

Have you tried it though? Seems to be broken.

hmm; it alowed me to put 7 northbound LEL controls in, but would not allow it by cycle, only shortest (which included motorways) but it did allow a 205km cycle route.