Author Topic: Average speeds  (Read 11857 times)

Average speeds
« on: December 13, 2010, 07:19:07 pm »
Something that was said in another thread , has just led me to query , whether it is acceptable to travel between controls quicker than the permitted max average speed.
In other words , you hit control one  ten mins down on fastest possible time. 
Then hit control two 5 mins down ,  is that acceptable?   Given the fact , your overall average is within the permitted speed .but your control to control speed is grater than permited ?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Average speeds
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2010, 07:23:58 pm »
As long as you 'control' between the opening and closing times, you can ride as fast as you like between controls.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

AndyH

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2010, 07:25:58 pm »
It's not something I've ever worried about !

But if you're there after the control has opened I don't think anyone would notice. You might have to wait for a cup of tea though. Surely the average speed is for the whole event, not the time between controls.

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2010, 07:32:32 pm »
I've had my card taken off me, been told to go and get something to eat, and collected the card again when the control officially opened.

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2010, 07:46:21 pm »
As long as you 'control' between the opening and closing times, you can ride as fast as you like between controls.

Yes.
I remember being told that the late, great, Mick Potts averaged about 24mph between two controls on a 400 in Lincolnshire, which would be a comfortable pace for him. This was roundabout the time he was the National 24 hour Champion. Apparently, he'd been riding with his Derby Mercury clubmates, so was well within the time limits and some way into the ride, but decided that he'd like to press on at his own pace.

I wouldn't be surprised if other National 24 hour Champions, such as John Warnock, Nikolaus Gardiner and Gethin Butler (also LEJOG and 1000 mile record holder) have ridden considerably faster than 30kph between controls either. Especially when you consider that all of the above have exceeded 21mph average speed (including any stops) for 24 hours.

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2010, 07:50:14 pm »
The way I look at it if you like to ride fast,just learn to enjoy casual cafe breaks.Why not just enjoy the company?

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2010, 08:04:51 pm »

Cheers guys,  pretty much as i expected and as i said it was something i read in another thread.
That led me to ask.



Quote
I wouldn't be surprised if other National 24 hour Champions, such as John Warnock, Nikolaus Gardiner and Gethin Butler (also LEJOG and 1000 mile record holder) have ridden considerably faster than 30kph between controls either. Especially when you consider that all of the above have exceeded 21mph average speed (including any stops) for 24 hours.

Yeah, sort of been there.   Yours truely, nik gardiner  and one other, menai bridge in the brian chapman ,3p.m .
Must have been bonkers.  Not as fit as that now though. 

DanialW

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2010, 08:21:15 pm »
I've had my card taken off me, been told to go and get something to eat, and collected the card again when the control officially opened.

Show off.

border-rider

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2010, 09:10:17 pm »
I've had my card taken off me, been told to go and get something to eat, and collected the card again when the control officially opened.

Show off.

well, I have too, so it's not that much of an athletic feat :)

Some early season 100s have very generous time allowances...


arabella

  • no se porque yo no lo se
Re: Average speeds
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2010, 09:13:38 pm »
Even I managed to get wind assisted to Dungy-ness before the control opened on I think the Hailsham 400 one year.
By the time I'd queued up etc.
In the dark, all views are the same.

Grandad

  • Once upon a time
Re: Average speeds
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2010, 09:17:29 pm »
I remember arriving at a control in Essex to find the officials enjoying a good laugh. Apparently a too-early rider was a local RTTC (it was a long time ago!) official who was notorious for rigidly enforcing every rule in the book.  They had made him wait and said he was not best pleased.

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2010, 09:51:53 pm »
I've had my card taken off me, been told to go and get something to eat, and collected the card again when the control officially opened.

Show off.

well, I have too, so it's not that much of an athletic feat :)

Some early season 100s have very generous time allowances...




...on a 200, and a 300.

But MV's comment still applies.

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2010, 09:59:24 pm »
I've had my card taken off me, been told to go and get something to eat, and collected the card again when the control officially opened.

Show off.

well, I have too, so it's not that much of an athletic feat :)

Some early season 100s have very generous time allowances...




...on a 200, and a 300.

But MV's comment still applies.

About 30 riders were at least half an hour early for the first control of the CTC National 400 in 1996 from Lincoln. Almost everyone had arrived before the control opened.

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2010, 11:38:22 pm »
If you could not ride faster than the limit between two controls, you could be in trouble.

Assume you get near the limit on an early control, perhaps because of a puncture or because the first leg was into the wind. How do you recover the situation?

border-rider

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2010, 11:43:33 pm »
Max vs min limits.


Giraffe

  • I brake for Giraffes
Re: Average speeds
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2010, 08:32:01 am »
As long as you 'control' between the opening and closing times, you can ride as fast as you like between controls.

Yes.
I remember being told that the late, great, Mick Potts averaged about 24mph between two controls on a 400 in Lincolnshire, which would be a comfortable pace for him. This was roundabout the time he was the National 24 hour Champion. Apparently, he'd been riding with his Derby Mercury clubmates, so was well within the time limits and some way into the ride, but decided that he'd like to press on at his own pace.

Yes, he did. Somehow I managed to stay with that little bunch (mainly due to another AUK who had a ferocious sprint just going on the front to slow it down so that I could get back on).
It was about 10mph above my usual cruising speed, at night and on damp roads.
About 25 miles in an hour, with a breeze behind us.

As for Mick riding at his own pace - he was so fast that Ian Gray wouldn't chase him at one point when he went wrong and Ian was an ex-pro (won the Mersey 24h on only his second TT). I used to see Mick a lot: he'd blast past then, an hour or two later, blast past again. His average speed was far too high but was alleviated by distance.
2x4: thick plank; 4x4: 2 of 'em.

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2010, 09:59:54 am »
If you could not ride faster than the limit between two controls, you could be in trouble.

Assume you get near the limit on an early control, perhaps because of a p*nct*r* or because the first leg was into the wind. How do you recover the situation?

As long as you do the rest of the ride at more than the minimum average speed you'll be gaining the time back as you go along.

Imagine a 200km event with controls every 50km. Limits of 15kph and 30kph.

Arrive at first control (50km) after 3h19m (1 minute inside the time).

Do the remaining 150km at 15kph and you'll finish right on the time limit (13h19m)
Do the remaining 150km at 20kph and you'll finish with a total riding time of 10h49m
Do the remaining 150km at 25kph and you'll finish with a total riding time of 9h19m.
Do the remaining 150km at 30kph and you'll finish with a total riding time of just 8h19m.

Take the 30kph average (still below the maximum average speed). Add on an hour for controls (if you're fast you can do this) and you're finish the whole thing in 9h19m, faster than I've ever done a 200km Audax, even after being on the edge of time at the first control a quarter of the way through the ride.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2010, 10:54:43 am »
And, of course, there is nothing (except your fitness, or the wind, or the hills, or too big a feed at the first control etc.) to stop you riding at 45kph average after the first control.

Then you'd finish after spending 3h19m on the first 50km and 3h20m on the remaining 150km. Add a few minutes at each control and you'll be just the right side of the 6h40m minimum time limit.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Average speeds
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2010, 11:11:11 am »
Of course, France and the USA don't stick to rigid 30 km/h maximum speed for randonnees. They use a sliding max speed RUSA: Calculation of Control Times for ACP Brevets
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2010, 11:46:05 am »
Of course, France and the USA don't stick to rigid 30 km/h maximum speed for randonnees. They use a sliding max speed RUSA: Calculation of Control Times for ACP Brevets

So can we, in theory.

LEE

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2010, 11:54:43 am »
Of all the wierd and wonderful threads posted on YACF, including some borderline-legal ones about sexual deviancy and others about advanced mathematics, this thread, concerning the implications of arriving at an Audax control before it opens,  has the least relevance to me.

Re: Average speeds
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2010, 12:07:27 pm »
I once did a 200km perm on the Middle Road where I got to the halfway point (with a following wind) quite a bit inside the time limit. I finished the whole ride within normal speeds but when I got my perm card back from validation, the extra time I should've waited at the turn for that control to "open" was added to the finishing time. I thought it rather petty at the time and haven't ridden a perm since.

He was a stickler, wasn't he.

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Average speeds
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2010, 04:11:27 pm »
I once got to an info control on a 300 before it opened

I didn't even stop



Audaxing Blog follow @vorsprungbike on

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: Average speeds
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2010, 04:21:30 pm »
My M.O. is to struggle to get to controls before they close ::-)

Hummers

  • It is all about the taste.
Re: Average speeds
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2010, 04:34:33 pm »
Riding faster/stopping for less time will improve your overall speed but won't neccessarily make for a more enjoyable ride IMHO. If I had pretensions of a sub 8 hour 200 then I'd be better off riding Sportives and losing about 3-4 stone in weight which ain't ever going to happen.

If you can manage a rolling speed of 25kph then you can have a leisurely stop at controls (45 mins or so) and still get around with an overall average speed of 20kph which means starting in daylight and finishing in daylight for most 200k rides. I'm no racing snake ( :o) but can manage that reasonably easily when I've got an adequate number of rides in my legs.

H