Author Topic: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.  (Read 22853 times)

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #75 on: 06 January, 2011, 12:06:01 pm »
Mattc, The issue really, really is not about the money but about the hassle in (re)entering a perm for rider and org, and the satisfaction of completing a job started. Until recently a perm cost until £2 to enter and it was a purely cheque and snail mail process, truely a labour of love for all concerned. Regardless, once the application has been processed there is no further work to be done until a completed brevet is submitted. Lastly (happily) we've been discussing an exceptional situation.

The reality is the world has moved on and the advent of online entry and the DIY GPS means discussions about 'reusing Brevet Cards' are rather obsolete. It's hard to get worked up about a paperless online entry. Sad really.

mattc

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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #76 on: 06 January, 2011, 12:15:23 pm »
Mattc, The issue really, really is not about the money but about the hassle in (re)entering a perm for rider and org, and the satisfaction of completing a job started.
I didn't mean to accuse DIY riders of being penny-pinching piss-takers - apologies if that was the impression!

I was more looking at it from the other end i.e. are the Orgs being asked to do too much for bugger all.

Of course if none of the Orgs feel this is the case (there seem to be swings and roundabouts in the whole process), then this is irrelevant! ChrisS has already declared his view.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Billy Weir

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #77 on: 06 January, 2011, 01:10:32 pm »
I understand, and indeed have a great deal of empathy with the views championed by Plodding Pedro and Chris S, but what I can't understand is why it is considered acceptable for permanents of any type to be treated differently to calendar events.  It was always my understanding that the two were equivalent.  You enter an event, and you either do it or you don't.  The ability to state a start time only seconds in the future is a bonus.  I would support an argument against being able to change it once set.

I was going to write much the same thing.  Put simply, the parity between calendar and permanent events is a fundamental aspect of any regulations governing events.  It strikes me that such parity would mean a rider dnf'ing calendar event was granted a free entry for the corresponding following year's event.  I'll be surprised if anyone feels this a reasonable policy.


Manotea

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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #78 on: 06 January, 2011, 02:04:09 pm »
I understand, and indeed have a great deal of empathy with the views championed by Plodding Pedro and Chris S, but what I can't understand is why it is considered acceptable for permanents of any type to be treated differently to calendar events.  It was always my understanding that the two were equivalent.  You enter an event, and you either do it or you don't.  The ability to state a start time only seconds in the future is a bonus.  I would support an argument against being able to change it once set.

I was going to write much the same thing.  Put simply, the parity between calendar and permanent events is a fundamental aspect of any regulations governing events.  It strikes me that such parity would mean a rider dnf'ing calendar event was granted a free entry for the corresponding following year's event.  I'll be surprised if anyone feels this a reasonable policy.



How can they be not comparable, they are both rides over the same distance, just entered a different way.

As always, it depends on your point of view...

A calendar 'event' is exactly that, an occaision of high pomp and cermony, published in the AUK calendar by an organiser who has likely invested considerable time and effort in arranging route and accomodation in the hope and expectation of attracting a bevy of appreciative AUKs eager to participate in jolly japes and adventures.

Perm 'events' mostly consist of lonely sad types riding their bikes when and wheresoever they choose and looking to justify it by claiming some sort of official record of their 'acheivement'. This chap is a particularly wretched example.

What if I didn't complete a calendar ride, could I ride it again for free next year without the hassle of re-entering it?

No, because a calendar event has a pre-ordained schedule, a start, a middle and an end. You are either there or you aren't.

A perm can happen any time. All the matters is that the route is completed within the time limit.

Billy Weir

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #79 on: 06 January, 2011, 05:02:57 pm »
It is not true that a permanent event gives flexibility on the start, middle and end.  Like calendar events, the start is fixed (it is when you confirm to the organiser you will ride).

It strikes me that what is a point of view is whether allowing recycling of entries promotes long distance cycling and so meets the aims of AUK.  I sometimes wonder if one needs to make a distinction between encouraging people to do more long distance rides or encouraging more people to do long distance rides.

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #80 on: 06 January, 2011, 05:11:33 pm »
It is not true that a permanent event gives flexibility on the start, middle and end.  Like calendar events, the start is fixed (it is when you confirm to the organiser you will ride).

Only to the day. I can start a ride at just past midnight or just approaching midnight on my appointed day.

Try starting a calendar event 2 hours before or after the allotted start time.

If people want parity between Calendar and Perm events should we have to specify an exact start time for a Perm (i.e. 9am on 6th January 2011), with the clock starting ticking then (regardless of the time of the first receipt) and anyone jumping the gun disqualified?

How equal do you want Calendar and Perm events to be?
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #81 on: 06 January, 2011, 05:13:24 pm »
Only to the day. I can start a ride at just past midnight or just approaching midnight on my appointed day.

Try starting a calendar event 2 hours before or after the allotted start time.

Well it's funny you should say that ...

Oh hang on, I promised the rider I wouldn't tell anyone  :-X (non-BRM ride, rest assured)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Billy Weir

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #82 on: 06 January, 2011, 05:44:03 pm »
I can't tell if you're being serious GB.

They are currently consistent.

The entry form for both calendar and permanent events do not specify a time.

That you have to be at a particular place at a particular time for calendar events is about getting proof of control (i.e. collecting your card at the appointed time and having it "authorised" by the calendar organiser).  You then head off at the appointed time in order that AUK can validate how long you took to do the ride (i.e. check you conformed to the speed regulations).  It would be problematic to organise such "mass" events otherwise.

Permanent events give you flexibility about proving what time you started the event.

As an aside, the glossary in the handbook contains a clarification of what a permanent event is and implies what the difference is compared to a calendar event.  As is the way of these things, it remains sufficiently vague for people to come to their own views (which I've done and impose on those people kind enough to enter my perm events).

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #83 on: 06 January, 2011, 06:37:16 pm »
There does seem to be a terminology|use of language issue.

'Recycling/reusing' implies some form of double benefit when there has been none.

Better to say that perms brevets are 'completed' when the brevet is submitted for validation. There may have been several attempts - usually at vast cost and effort to the rider against which the cost of the brevet is insignificant - but a validated ride only happens once.

AndyH

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #84 on: 06 January, 2011, 07:12:44 pm »
I'm simultaneously surprised and heartened by the passion which these debates generate here.

Surprised (in this instance) because it doesn't seem to me to be much hassle to re-enter a perm if you DNF. Heartened (generally) because it shows a true passion for this branch of the sport. Even if it is just a few people debating.

My view as previously stated is that once you start that's it, you either finish or that attempt / entry / card has gone. However Mr Ts view that you are paying for a validation has some attraction, and his passion makes me waver.

Maybe AUK needs simpler, 1 line, crystal clear rules regarding this and similar issues, rather than regulations that seem open to interpretation. I suppose someone will be along shortly to tell me that it has.

Martin

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #85 on: 06 January, 2011, 10:52:10 pm »
this from the AUK website hopefully puts this whole thread to bed  :)

Permanent rides are more flexible than calendared events. Most can be ridden at any time and many organisers will not insist that you commit yourself to a particular date in advance.

On the day, write the date in your brevet card and find a suitable start control for your ride.


in this respect; submitting an entry form online with a date (and not postponing it at the last minute) constitutes the same thing, so if I get one and no further communication before the day I shall now take the entry as being spent with or without validation.

Billy Weir

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #86 on: 07 January, 2011, 08:25:38 am »
so if I get one and no further communication before the day I shall now take the entry as being spent with or without validation.

This is also the approach I'm taking.

mmmmartin

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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #87 on: 07 January, 2011, 11:45:41 am »
if I get one and no further communication before the day I shall now take the entry as being spent with or without validation
I think That Man With The Oven In The Layby ;D doesn't take that view - I get the brevet and routesheet through the post - I have all his perms in a box at home - and ride them when the fancy takes me. Obviously I can't email him. i just keep an eye on the weather and make the decision the night before - bring the bike in from the shed, a quick look at the tyres for flints, load the saddlebag, 3am alarm and away I go. It's brilliant, and for me at least as enjoyable as calendar events. Riding alone at night through deserted country lanes, and making long journeys across the landscape is the essnce of Audax, as far I'm concerned.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

Martin

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #88 on: 07 January, 2011, 12:34:15 pm »
well yes the only proper perms I regularly ride are also organised by the same person, and I use the same system (I was going to dig the Buckbarn 200 card out of the draw for my Jan RRTY until persuaded to brave the potholes of Compton Abdale instead, at least someone's liable to find me)

But by chancing a DNF and thus leaving the card blank until the end one is strictly not following the approved AUK process which is once started a perm is deemed to be entered and used, I just wanted to find it written in black and white somewhere.

mmmmartin

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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #89 on: 07 January, 2011, 01:10:20 pm »
the approved AUK process which is once started a perm is deemed to be entered and used
yes that makes perfect sense. which might be why the World of Water seems to have an approved El Supremo-issue stamp to mark the brevet, so if you then DNF on a perm the card has been marked and used and can't be used again.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #90 on: 07 January, 2011, 01:16:35 pm »
the approved AUK process which is once started a perm is deemed to be entered and used
yes that makes perfect sense. which might be why the World of Water seems to have an approved El Supremo-issue stamp to mark the brevet, so if you then DNF on a perm the card has been marked and used and can't be used again.

Does the stamp have a date on it or does someone write the date in the first control box?

If not, what's to stop you DNF-ing, going back to WoW the next day to start and using the same card (assuming there are no other marks in it?) but not bothering with the stamp since you already have one.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Martin

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #91 on: 07 January, 2011, 01:33:55 pm »

If not, what's to stop you DNF-ing, going back to WoW the next day to start and using the same card (assuming there are no other marks in it?) but not bothering with the stamp since you already have one.

Like all these things (and fiddling the date on a GPX track, changing the date on your server; riding a normal perm and taking 4 gps units from other riders all with a different DIY org, keeping ATM slips for re-use etc etc) nothing.  IIRC last and only time I did a perm to the WoW I had to ask for the stamp and it was found in a box under the counter; if I'd kept stumm they would have just assumed I was another hungry cyclist.

mmmmartin

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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #92 on: 07 January, 2011, 01:38:05 pm »
Like all these things ..... nothing
Except honesty.

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #93 on: 07 January, 2011, 02:15:01 pm »
in this respect; submitting an entry form online with a date (and not postponing it at the last minute) constitutes the same thing, so if I get one and no further communication before the day I shall now take the entry as being spent with or without validation.
You've worried me here with this Martin.

Firstly, I looks like you've added an administrative task to your workflow (i.e. keeping tabs on it) that wasn't there before; and you've compounded the task by creating two different scenarios, one where a rider communicates to say he's postponing and one where he doesn't or does so too late. I'd ask you to consider what benefit such a situation really serves?

Second, you're effectively saying that if a rider has entered on-line and awakes to icy roads he can't postpone his ride until a later date without having to re-enter and pay another £2 - why? Might this encourage someone to ride when it would be more sensible to wait? Is the rider who fails to communicate postponement in time (and when precisely is the time deadline?) really so much less virtuous that he deserves a £2 fine and has to enter and submit his entry form all over again (and bearing in mind that so far as I can tell, these on-line entry forms can't be saved for re-use);

Third, this might be a unilateral effective change of rules that isn't applied consistently across the whole country (debatable this; I don't actually know if all other Organisers would follow suit, but from a "democratic" perspective, I'd go with the view that such a "rule change", if such it be, should be fully debated and voted on at AGM);

Fourth, as a generalisation I think extra hassle would discourage rather than encourage rides - contrary to our "mission statement". I can certainly say that having reached a situation where DIYs are very easy now with GPS, I shan't be inclined to continue my Audaxing at the elevated levels I've achieved over the last two seasons if the hassle factor is arbitrarily increased by fiddling with the "rules" for no benefit. I'll never be in the running for any Championships or Awards and I've used my "points chasing" merely as a means of motivating myself to try and improve my abilities. If the system is going to be made pointlessly more difficult just because certain factions feel it's necessary in order to pursue this ludicrous concept that Permanents/DIYs need to made more of a hassle, then forget it; I'll just go ride my bike.

(And before anyone comes back on this last remark, yes of course I have that option, whatever the AUK rule structure. The whole point of this discussion is - or should be - how do we arrange things so that AUK as an institution promotes and encourages long distance riding).


Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #94 on: 07 January, 2011, 02:31:17 pm »

If not, what's to stop you DNF-ing, going back to WoW the next day to start and using the same card (assuming there are no other marks in it?) but not bothering with the stamp since you already have one.

Like all these things (and fiddling the date on a GPX track, changing the date on your server; riding a normal perm and taking 4 gps units from other riders all with a different DIY org, keeping ATM slips for re-use etc etc) nothing.  IIRC last and only time I did a perm to the WoW I had to ask for the stamp and it was found in a box under the counter; if I'd kept stumm they would have just assumed I was another hungry cyclist.

I wasn't talking about how you could cheat (a simple stamp doesn't help prevent that) in that sense. You've cut the relevant part that I had quoted and was replying to:-

yes that makes perfect sense. which might be why the World of Water seems to have an approved El Supremo-issue stamp to mark the brevet, so if you then DNF on a perm the card has been marked and used and can't be used again.

I was asking whether it was a simple stamp and, if so, how a simple stamp prevents the card from being reused if someone chose to. I can't see how it can, no-one else sees the card before it is reused.

The rider still goes to WoW to start the ride, and completes the ride as required, it's just that the stamp wasn't obtained that day but easily could have been. Whether or not this is within the rules is a separate issue. If the rider doesn't start from WoW then it's obvious he/she is cheating as they haven't completed the full ride.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Cyklisten

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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #95 on: 07 January, 2011, 03:24:14 pm »
Does the stamp have a date on it or does someone write the date in the first control box?

dated and signed, in my experience.
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mmmmartin

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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #96 on: 07 January, 2011, 03:26:28 pm »
Yes, the WoW people seem to be well trained by El. They write in the time, stamp the brevet and sign it, I think. (Although the scribble is only half legible.)
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

Cyklisten

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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #97 on: 07 January, 2011, 03:35:33 pm »
(Although the scribble is only half legible.)
Thats a special 128bit encryption - makes it difficult to forge!
Ti små cyklister tog ud på cykeltur ...

SFACC Audax Champion 2010