Author Topic: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding  (Read 19828 times)

Clandy

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2011, 08:08:50 am »
Have they had the poor, hard done by, innocent, law-abiding souls of Dale Farm on yet?

Oh yes, and a very balanced piece of reporting it was too.  Not.

On Channel 4 isn't it? I would expect nothing less. Did they show a clip with someone shouting 'She's a human being!' That's about two or three years old now, but appears in many programmes about travellers, and is often used to misrepresent the issues.

My parents live in Wickford, I lived there for much of my life. Borwick Lane, Oak Road, Wash Road were part of my regular ride when I lived there. We have first hand experience of living next door to Europe's largest illegal traveller site.

border-rider

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 08:16:37 am »
The programme filmed the gypsies without comment, from their own perspective, leaving the viewer to make value judgements.  Indeed, the lack of comment on things like the 6 year old being tarted up or the 14 stone wedding dress with Christmas lights and butterflies was more effective than anything.

I didn't think it was especially sympathetic, myself, although I'd agree it was also not overtly condemnatory. I think that was the point.

My concern about it was that it perhaps felt a bit voyeuristic at times.  But then I'm not a fan of this genre anyway.

Charlotte

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 08:50:57 am »
Have they had the poor, hard done by, innocent, law-abiding souls of Dale Farm on yet?

Oh yes, and a very balanced piece of reporting it was too.  Not.

I think MV makes a good point.  This isn't supposed to be balanced documentary; it’s car-crash telly, looking at a culture which most people in the UK are going to be completely unable to fathom.

Compared to much of the output in this genre, I think it’s surprisingly non-judgemental.  It would be easy to portray them as pariahs.
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Clandy

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2011, 09:19:22 am »
It would be easy to portray them as pariahs.

They do that themselves. I presume the programme is not showing Crays Hill School, which is half a mile from dale Farm, and which has the highest absence record in Britain. The travellers regularly use 'our children's education will suffer' as a reason not to be moved from their illegal plots, what they don't tell you is none of them send their children to the school provided.
Did the programme show the shops in Wickford, the chemists, etc. that now have to put empty boxes on their shelves because of the epidemic levels of Dale Farm travellers shoplifting? Did it show the local settled community of Oak Road who have suffered break-ins, vandalism, violent intimidation etc? Did it show the Prince of Wales pub which has had to close it's doors to travellers because of the regular fighting and damage to the pub? Did it show the traveller lady who pleaded poverty and claimed legal aid to fight eviction while buying a £250,000 house cash? Did it show the traveller lady who was convicted for fraudulent benefits claims while having £150,000 in her savings account? Did it show the many convictions for tobacco smuggling, importing illegal furniture, car theft, horse box theft? Did it show the international arrest warrants for the men of Dale Farm who spend their time selling stolen goods around Europe? Did it show the violence that was inflicted on the original Diddakoi residents of Dale Farm by the travellers to drive them out? Did it show the large houses they own in Rathkeale, Eire while claiming homelessness here?

Did the programme show any of that?

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2011, 09:35:00 am »
I've not seen the programme in question, so couldn't possibly comment on that. I suppose the thing is that people only ever remember the bad experiences with gypsies/travellers/whatever you want to call them. I've had plenty of bad ones but also some good ones. I guess you'd just never notice a law abiding traveller as they keep their noses clean. There were a few near here a while ago and they were very friendly and nice. They did leave an automatic gearbox in the ditch though which was slowly leaking transmission fluid into the countryside  ::-)
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Charlotte

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2011, 10:12:24 am »
It would be easy to portray them as pariahs.

They do that themselves. I presume the programme is not showing Crays Hill School, which is half a mile from dale Farm, and which has the highest absence record in Britain. The travellers regularly use 'our children's education will suffer' as a reason not to be moved from their illegal plots, what they don't tell you is none of them send their children to the school provided.
Did the programme show the shops in Wickford, the chemists, etc. that now have to put empty boxes on their shelves because of the epidemic levels of Dale Farm travellers shoplifting? Did it show the local settled community of Oak Road who have suffered break-ins, vandalism, violent intimidation etc? Did it show the Prince of Wales pub which has had to close it's doors to travellers because of the regular fighting and damage to the pub? Did it show the traveller lady who pleaded poverty and claimed legal aid to fight eviction while buying a £250,000 house cash? Did it show the traveller lady who was convicted for fraudulent benefits claims while having £150,000 in her savings account? Did it show the many convictions for tobacco smuggling, importing illegal furniture, car theft, horse box theft? Did it show the international arrest warrants for the men of Dale Farm who spend their time selling stolen goods around Europe? Did it show the violence that was inflicted on the original Diddakoi residents of Dale Farm by the travellers to drive them out? Did it show the large houses they own in Rathkeale, Eire while claiming homelessness here?

Did the programme show any of that?

So other than that, I'm assuming you quite like traveling folk, then Clandy?
Commercial, Editorial and PR Photographer - www.charlottebarnes.co.uk

Clandy

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2011, 10:16:05 am »
I've not seen the programme in question, so couldn't possibly comment on that. I suppose the thing is that people only ever remember the bad experiences with gypsies/travellers/whatever you want to call them. I've had plenty of bad ones but also some good ones. I guess you'd just never notice a law abiding traveller as they keep their noses clean. There were a few near here a while ago and they were very friendly and nice. They did leave an automatic gearbox in the ditch though which was slowly leaking transmission fluid into the countryside  ::-)

I grew up in Wickford. Before I left home our neighbours were settled Diddakoi who owned a pig farm in Cranfield Park Road. In school holidays I would work for them. I went to school with their kids, played with them in the evenings and weekends. On Guy Fawkes night we would all go to their farm for a huge bonfire celebration. They were the best neighbours anyone could wish for. In later life I have bought cars from Diddakoi who live in Pound Lane, the family of Freddie Eastwod the footballer. When I arrived to look at the car I was welcomed into their home, fed, given a cup of tea, the children referred to me as 'the mush', which didn't bother me at all ("The mush wants to start the car, drive it round the field").
The thing is there is a difference between Diddakoi, Romany, and Irish travellers. The first two are wonderful people, the latter are a mobile crimewave masquerading under the 'gypsy' banner.

Clandy

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2011, 10:20:03 am »
It would be easy to portray them as pariahs.

They do that themselves. I presume the programme is not showing Crays Hill School, which is half a mile from dale Farm, and which has the highest absence record in Britain. The travellers regularly use 'our children's education will suffer' as a reason not to be moved from their illegal plots, what they don't tell you is none of them send their children to the school provided.
Did the programme show the shops in Wickford, the chemists, etc. that now have to put empty boxes on their shelves because of the epidemic levels of Dale Farm travellers shoplifting? Did it show the local settled community of Oak Road who have suffered break-ins, vandalism, violent intimidation etc? Did it show the Prince of Wales pub which has had to close it's doors to travellers because of the regular fighting and damage to the pub? Did it show the traveller lady who pleaded poverty and claimed legal aid to fight eviction while buying a £250,000 house cash? Did it show the traveller lady who was convicted for fraudulent benefits claims while having £150,000 in her savings account? Did it show the many convictions for tobacco smuggling, importing illegal furniture, car theft, horse box theft? Did it show the international arrest warrants for the men of Dale Farm who spend their time selling stolen goods around Europe? Did it show the violence that was inflicted on the original Diddakoi residents of Dale Farm by the travellers to drive them out? Did it show the large houses they own in Rathkeale, Eire while claiming homelessness here?

Did the programme show any of that?

So other than that, I'm assuming you quite like traveling folk, then Clandy?

I'll ask the question again: Did the programme show any of that?

Mr Larrington

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2011, 10:39:12 am »
Quote from: Clandy

Oh, you bastard! I fuckin' hate pikeys!

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2011, 10:41:59 am »
It would be easy to portray them as pariahs.

They do that themselves. I presume the programme is not showing Crays Hill School, which is half a mile from dale Farm, and which has the highest absence record in Britain. The travellers regularly use 'our children's education will suffer' as a reason not to be moved from their illegal plots, what they don't tell you is none of them send their children to the school provided.
Did the programme show the shops in Wickford, the chemists, etc. that now have to put empty boxes on their shelves because of the epidemic levels of Dale Farm travellers shoplifting? Did it show the local settled community of Oak Road who have suffered break-ins, vandalism, violent intimidation etc? Did it show the Prince of Wales pub which has had to close it's doors to travellers because of the regular fighting and damage to the pub? Did it show the traveller lady who pleaded poverty and claimed legal aid to fight eviction while buying a £250,000 house cash? Did it show the traveller lady who was convicted for fraudulent benefits claims while having £150,000 in her savings account? Did it show the many convictions for tobacco smuggling, importing illegal furniture, car theft, horse box theft? Did it show the international arrest warrants for the men of Dale Farm who spend their time selling stolen goods around Europe? Did it show the violence that was inflicted on the original Diddakoi residents of Dale Farm by the travellers to drive them out? Did it show the large houses they own in Rathkeale, Eire while claiming homelessness here?

Did the programme show any of that?

So other than that, I'm assuming you quite like traveling folk, then Clandy?

I'll ask the question again: Did the programme show any of that?
Many of the above are not exclusive to traveling folk by any means.

Clandy

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2011, 10:46:27 am »
Quote from: Clandy

Oh, you bastard! I fuckin' hate pikeys!


See post #32. I'll let you apologise in your own time.

citoyen

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2011, 10:53:09 am »

Regulator

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2011, 10:58:28 am »
Wow, the mother of the bride!

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2011, 11:08:04 am »
My experience of travelling folk isn't extensive. I taught a couple of kids from the St Johns site near york - the children were always respectful, polite and attentive. Their parents always arrived on time to pick them up from gym club and were polite to the gym staff. This was a marked contrast to many of the other parents, who were often late (up to an hour late!), whose kids were rude and hard work.

Sometimes a few new families would arrive at the St Johns site. The nearby shops dreaded it, as the kids and adults descended on them like a plague of shoplifting locusts.

Some friends had a gypsy/romany/diddakoi family across the street (dunno which they were). After an uneasy period of bikes going missing, kids toys walking off, my friend made cautious approaches to the family. One thing she found out was that in these people's culture, anything left outside was considered as being left available for anyone's use. However, inside a dwelling was sacrosanct - out of bounds to even enter without specific permission.  Once she found that out, they got along very well.
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Charlotte

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2011, 11:33:25 am »
So other than that, I'm assuming you quite like traveling folk, then Clandy?

I'll ask the question again: Did the programme show any of that?

I thought the programme gave me an insight into their unique culture, Clandy.  Theirs is a society on the wane and the filmmakers clearly sought to document it.
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citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2011, 12:04:47 pm »
Theirs is a society on the wane and the filmmakers clearly sought to document it.

That sounds slightly naive and/or disingenuous. Any documentary, however objective it purports to be, has an editorial process behind it.

I thought the agenda was pretty obvious in this case. It's classic car crash TV. It's nothing to do with traveller culture being under threat of extinction, it's about middle class media twats pointing and laughing at the lower class scum.

d.

Charlotte

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2011, 12:09:38 pm »
It's classic car crash TV. It's nothing to do with traveller culture being under threat of extinction, it's about middle class media twats pointing and laughing at the lower class scum.

I think there's the distinct possibility that this documentary was intended to operate on a number of levels, only one of which was pointing and laughing at people whose only crime is just to want to be different.
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her_welshness

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2011, 12:29:29 pm »
It's classic car crash TV. It's nothing to do with traveller culture being under threat of extinction, it's about middle class media twats pointing and laughing at the lower class scum.

I think there's the distinct possibility that this documentary was intended to operate on a number of levels, only one of which was pointing and laughing at people whose only crime is just to want to be different.

I agree, which is why the Radio 4 panel gave it the thumbs up. Yes we gawped at the dresses, but there were moments where I genuinely felt that this show is documenting, in a sympathetic way, the culture (and decline) of these folk.

Rig of Jarkness

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2011, 12:44:37 pm »
The thing is there is a difference between Diddakoi, Romany, and Irish travellers.

This point is also made here by a (very nice sounding) member of the Scottish Romany community...BBC News - Traveller Missy MacMillan on Channel 4's My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding

And no Clandy, I'm afraid that at no point in the programme was any comment aired from any 'muggle' members of the local community other than those supporting the travellers.
Aero but not dynamic

Clandy

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2011, 12:44:58 pm »
at people whose only crime is just to want to be different.

That is a matter of experience. For the politically correct Grauniad reader who has never had to live next door to an illegally built encampment of over a thousand on greenbelt land, 'wanting to be different' might be their only crime. For the local population whose lives have been blighted, their shops ruined, their property stolen or vandalised or fly-tipped on, their families threatened with violence or worse, things are very different indeed.

Here's another question about the programme.
When Dale Farm was shown, how many traveller men were filmed? The fathers of the children, the husbands of the women?  I'll bet my Moulton that the answer to that is 'none', because all the traveller women on Dale Farm claim to be single mothers, and claim the relevant benefits. Meanwhile the men spend the majority of their time in Europe buying cheap, dangerous furniture, tobacco, alcohol etc. to import illegally into the country. One has been convicted of raping a wheelchair bound woman in her home, another imprisoned for drug smuggling, another for stealing forty or fifty manhole covers (how sympathetinc would you be if you or your child had cycled into one of those?).
I suggest you look up 'Rathkeale travellers'.

citoyen

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2011, 01:00:16 pm »
Charlotte & her_welshness, sorry, but the more I think about this programme, the more cynical and exploitative I think it was.

d.

Clandy

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2011, 01:03:27 pm »
Is it available on 4od? If so I will watch it and give my impressions.

Clandy

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2011, 01:05:48 pm »
The thing is there is a difference between Diddakoi, Romany, and Irish travellers.

This point is also made here by a (very nice sounding) member of the Scottish Romany community...BBC News - Traveller Missy MacMillan on Channel 4's My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding

And no Clandy, I'm afraid that at no point in the programme was any comment aired from any 'muggle' members of the local community other than those supporting the travellers.

Thank you for posting that. She was extremely 'diplomatic' in her comments. The Diddakoi and Romany I know are rather more blunt in their opinion of the Dale Farm 'travellers'.

Charlotte

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Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2011, 01:42:24 pm »
at people whose only crime is just to want to be different.

That is a matter of experience. For the politically correct Grauniad reader who has never had to live next door to an illegally built encampment of over a thousand on greenbelt land, 'wanting to be different' might be their only crime. For the local population whose lives have been blighted, their shops ruined, their property stolen or vandalised or fly-tipped on, their families threatened with violence or worse, things are very different indeed.

Here's another question about the programme.
When Dale Farm was shown, how many traveller men were filmed? The fathers of the children, the husbands of the women?  I'll bet my Moulton that the answer to that is 'none', because all the traveller women on Dale Farm claim to be single mothers, and claim the relevant benefits. Meanwhile the men spend the majority of their time in Europe buying cheap, dangerous furniture, tobacco, alcohol etc. to import illegally into the country. One has been convicted of raping a wheelchair bound woman in her home, another imprisoned for drug smuggling, another for stealing forty or fifty manhole covers (how sympathetinc would you be if you or your child had cycled into one of those?).
I suggest you look up 'Rathkeale travellers'.

So the actions of just a percentage of these people is a reason for us to write off an entire community and force them further down a path of social exclusion?
Commercial, Editorial and PR Photographer - www.charlottebarnes.co.uk

Clandy

Re: Big Fat Gypsy Wedding
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2011, 01:48:42 pm »
at people whose only crime is just to want to be different.

That is a matter of experience. For the politically correct Grauniad reader who has never had to live next door to an illegally built encampment of over a thousand on greenbelt land, 'wanting to be different' might be their only crime. For the local population whose lives have been blighted, their shops ruined, their property stolen or vandalised or fly-tipped on, their families threatened with violence or worse, things are very different indeed.

Here's another question about the programme.
When Dale Farm was shown, how many traveller men were filmed? The fathers of the children, the husbands of the women?  I'll bet my Moulton that the answer to that is 'none', because all the traveller women on Dale Farm claim to be single mothers, and claim the relevant benefits. Meanwhile the men spend the majority of their time in Europe buying cheap, dangerous furniture, tobacco, alcohol etc. to import illegally into the country. One has been convicted of raping a wheelchair bound woman in her home, another imprisoned for drug smuggling, another for stealing forty or fifty manhole covers (how sympathetic would you be if you or your child had cycled into one of those?).
I suggest you look up 'Rathkeale travellers'.

So the actions of just a percentage of these people is a reason for us to write off an entire community and force them further down a path of social exclusion?

They exclude themselves. They refuse to send their children to the school provided, they refuse to abide by the laws the rest of us abide by. And you still have not answered my questions.
Did the programme show any of that?
When Dale Farm was shown, how many traveller men were filmed?