Author Topic: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.  (Read 8003 times)

Karla

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2011, 09:45:44 am »
One of the reasons my kids are so eternally grateful to the head teacher of their primary school was that he expected his pupils to excel, no matter what the opposition. When we took chess teams to National Championships, he actually told them that not only did he want them to "beat the posh kids" but that he wanted them to make them cry.

Do you think instilling that kind of prejudice at such a young age is a good thing?

At my school it was called bullying. 

On another note, I'm sick of bright kids being treated as nothing more than fuel for driving the less bright/privileged/whatever kids on to greater things.  The bright ones are people too, you know!

Wowbagger

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2011, 09:50:43 am »
One of the reasons my kids are so eternally grateful to the head teacher of their primary school was that he expected his pupils to excel, no matter what the opposition. When we took chess teams to National Championships, he actually told them that not only did he want them to "beat the posh kids" but that he wanted them to make them cry.

Do you think instilling that kind of prejudice at such a young age is a good thing?

At my school it was called bullying. 

On another note, I'm sick of bright kids being treated as nothing more than fuel for driving the less bright/privileged/whatever kids on to greater things.  The bright ones are people too, you know!

Prejudice? Bullying? Against the very people having an attitude of entitlement and superiority systematically thrust upon them?  ;D
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2011, 09:55:06 am »
One of the reasons my kids are so eternally grateful to the head teacher of their primary school was that he expected his pupils to excel, no matter what the opposition. When we took chess teams to National Championships, he actually told them that not only did he want them to "beat the posh kids" but that he wanted them to make them cry.

Do you think instilling that kind of prejudice at such a young age is a good thing?

Thank you Rapples for making that point. If I found that a headmaster was encouraging bullying based on who a child's parents are, I would be appalled.

And yes, I was bullied for being "posh" - because I didn't live on the council estate next to school, like many other kids!
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Wowbagger

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2011, 10:03:35 am »
One of the reasons my kids are so eternally grateful to the head teacher of their primary school was that he expected his pupils to excel, no matter what the opposition. When we took chess teams to National Championships, he actually told them that not only did he want them to "beat the posh kids" but that he wanted them to make them cry.

Do you think instilling that kind of prejudice at such a young age is a good thing?

Thank you Rapples for making that point. If I found that a headmaster was encouraging bullying based on who a child's parents are, I would be appalled.

And yes, I was bullied for being "posh" - because I didn't live on the council estate next to school, like many other kids!

Kids cry when they lose games of chess: I've seen grown men cry when they lose games of chess. They cry when they have been given an unreasonable expectation of their entitlement to something. It's a hard game and there's no escaping the fact that, if you lose, on that occasion your opponent was better than you.

If you are brought up, as many privately-educated kids are, to expect everything on a plate, it comes as a nasty shock when it doesn't happen, especially when it's your supposed inferiors who dish it out to you.

It's nothing whatever to do with bullying.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Pancho

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2011, 10:06:56 am »
Making the posh kids[1] cry has long been a tradition of bullies in UK schools. To see WB praising it and to hear of a headmaster encouraging it is shocking.

[1] Usually "posh" meaning intelligent or articulate or just going to a different school.

Wowbagger

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2011, 10:09:17 am »
Making the posh kids[1] cry has long been a tradition of bullies in UK schools. To see WB praising it and to hear of a headmaster encouraging it is shocking.

[1] Usually "posh" meaning intelligent or articulate or just going to a different school.

Bollocks. The rules of chess were applied and overseen by several of the country's top arbiters, at least two of whom were associated with what I believe to be fee-paying schools (Liverpool College and Haberdasher's, London).
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2011, 10:18:07 am »
We do have in our presence somone well qualified to comment on Grammar Schools and social mobility. The programme was bemoaning the fact that it was now unlikely that anyone from a less moneyed background could now do PPE at Oxford.
But some counties do still have selective Grammar Schools, and their results are good. One factor is that they atrract a high standard of teaching staff. Essex and Kent spring to mind. I remember reading a thread about a debating competition held at Maidstone Girl's Grammar, and the two privately-educated women wo went along to help with the judging of it seemed quite impressed by the standard, as was the proud father of the Head of History at that school.

clarion

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2011, 10:20:01 am »
Poor little overprivileged.

If they are beaten in a formal process such as chess, which knows no class but does discriminate between skill levels, that's just tough.

If they have been told that they will win everything all the time because they are inherently 'better' (and they are), then the cruelty is on the part of their teachers.
Getting there...

Wowbagger

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2011, 10:21:06 am »
We do have in our presence somone well qualified to comment on Grammar Schools and social mobility. The programme was bemoaning the fact that it was now unlikely that anyone from a less moneyed background could now do PPE at Oxford.
But some counties do still have selective Grammar Schools, and their results are good. One factor is that they atrract a high standard of teaching staff. Essex and Kent spring to mind. I remember reading a thread about a debating competition held at Maidstone Girl's Grammar, and the two privately-educated women wo went along to help with the judging of it seemed quite impressed by the standard, as was the proud father of the Head of History at that school.

Oh, fantastic! Straight 10s for that personal attack, ESL. Do you actually make notes on ancient threads and posts so that you can use them years later to attack people? You sad individual! (Edited on advice)

I've really riled the right-whingers today, haven't I?  ;D
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Karla

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2011, 10:37:17 am »
I usually get quite pissed off when grown men talk about how they want to making children cry, especially when it's not because of anything those children have done but because of something they can't control, i.e. their parents' income.

I was also bullied in school for being the dorky nice kid with the funny accent, but at least the bullies didn't pretend to be doing it for the good of class war.  Everyone knew they were just being little shits.

Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2011, 10:38:15 am »
No, you've completely discredited your side of the debate by descending into swearing at someone for what (and I've read it several times now in case I missed something) seems like a perfectly innocuous post.

Wowbagger

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2011, 10:42:36 am »
No, you've completely discredited your side of the debate by descending into swearing at someone for what (and I've read it several times now in case I missed something) seems like a perfectly innocuous post.

It's a thinly veiled personal attack. Given time, I could supply you with the links to demonstrate the fact.

I'll deal with the issues with reasoned debate. Personal attack is something else.

The ironic part is that a whole succession of people have lined up to attack me because they have chosen to misinterpret something I posted earlier as condoning bullying!  ;D
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Pancho

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2011, 10:44:33 am »
But reducing children to tears for going to the wrong school or just being "posh" is something to be cheered, eh?

Andrij

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2011, 10:44:46 am »
Compare and contrast:

Go out there and show them that being 'privileged' does not mean they're better than you.

Go out there and make the rich little bastards cry.



I sometimes wonder what people would moan about if Britain did become a 'classless' society.
 
;D  Andrij.  I pronounce you Complete and Utter GIT   :thumbsup:

Wowbagger

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2011, 10:45:20 am »
But reducing children to tears for going to the wrong school or just being "posh" is something to be cheered, eh?

Point out where anyone said it was.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Pancho

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #65 on: January 31, 2011, 10:48:55 am »
But reducing children to tears for going to the wrong school or just being "posh" is something to be cheered, eh?

Point out where anyone said it was.

Well you were. You gave it as an example of why such and such a school or head was so good.

Karla

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2011, 10:52:53 am »
Wowbagger, you quoted this  with approval.  As someone who escaped school after not a few tears, I hope my kids never come into contact with your headmaster.

he actually told them that not only did he want them to "beat the posh kids" but that he wanted them to make them cry. Chess, of course, tends to be the domain of the Public Schoolboy. There are very few girls.

mattc

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2011, 10:53:31 am »
The ironic part is that a whole succession of people have lined up to attack me ... <SNIP>

Does this whining make you a left-whinger ?
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Wowbagger

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2011, 10:59:51 am »
But reducing children to tears for going to the wrong school or just being "posh" is something to be cheered, eh?

Point out where anyone said it was.

Well you were. You gave it as an example of why such and such a school or head was so good.

What's the alternative? The posh kids turn up to the matches in pristine blazers and tailored trousers to our lot's sweatshirts, jeans and trainers. Mummy and Daddy hover around in sharp suits and rattling jewellery - a bit overdressed for an event taking place at a Pontins' holiday camp! Their whole body language - and, indeed, language, was geared to try to impose their superiority off the board. That's bullying - flaunting your extra wealth, code for saying "Whatever happens in this game of chess, when I'm grown up daddy will see to it that I get a very lucrative job as an investment banker whereas the best any of you will manage is a teacher." They are advertising the fact that they are posh. Why should we not refer to this ostentatious display of wealth in disparaging terms?

As for making them cry, it happens in all competitive arenas. If you don't like it, don't compete.

As an aside, I'm wondering what the catalyst has been for it taking until page 5 of the thread for you to attack me for something I wrote on page 2 when you've posted several times in the interim.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Wowbagger

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2011, 11:01:08 am »
The ironic part is that a whole succession of people have lined up to attack me ... <SNIP>

Does this whining make you a left-whinger ?

No, because you carefully edited out the bit which demonstrated the irony and the fact that I find it funny.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Julian

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2011, 11:05:57 am »
One of the reasons my kids are so eternally grateful to the head teacher of their primary school was that he expected his pupils to excel, no matter what the opposition. When we took chess teams to National Championships, he actually told them that not only did he want them to "beat the posh kids" but that he wanted them to make them cry.

Do you think instilling that kind of prejudice at such a young age is a good thing?

Thank you Rapples for making that point. If I found that a headmaster was encouraging bullying based on who a child's parents are, I would be appalled.

And yes, I was bullied for being "posh" - because I didn't live on the council estate next to school, like many other kids!

Kids cry when they lose games of chess: I've seen grown men cry when they lose games of chess. They cry when they have been given an unreasonable expectation of their entitlement to something. It's a hard game and there's no escaping the fact that, if you lose, on that occasion your opponent was better than you.

If you are brought up, as many privately-educated kids are, to expect everything on a plate, it comes as a nasty shock when it doesn't happen, especially when it's your supposed inferiors who dish it out to you.

It's nothing whatever to do with bullying.

I think that's a bit harsh on the public school kids.  Yes, children cry when they lose, but to say it's mere sense of entitlement is to lose a lot of the background there.

Kids at private school - as I know, having been to one, as ESL has kindly pointed out - don't have as much of a sense of entitlement as you suggest.  (Possibly at Eton / Rugby / Harrow, but not at places like the one I went to.)  Yes, the parents have to pay, but they don't just push the money in like a parking meter and leave the kids doing nothing.  

To get in, you pass some hideously difficult exams (our 11+ paper was based on a GCSE text).  If you are willing to work hard enough, there are amazing opportunities there - peripatetic music lessons, a huge art lab, playing fields for miles, drama clubs, teachers who are always willing to spend morning break going over work with you.  It's an atmosphere in which it's difficult nott to learn.  

But within that hothouse environment, you don't often fail.  When you have that much input from parents and teachers, and a classroom full of other kids who are (secretly) keen to learn, you DO get through the 11+ and you DO get brilliant GCSEs and you DO get the grade 8 music and you DO get the sports medals and you DO get good A levels and you DO get your top UCAS place.

You learn that if you just work that bit harder, you can achieve anything.

And then you enter the real world and you're not competing against thirty other kids, there are six billion adults in the world and you cannot, no matter how hard you work, be best any more.

It's not a coincidence that a number of my classmates had a couple of holidays at Rhodes Farm, and almost all of my friends from Oxford have at some stage been provided with Citalopram.  

Your little chess players didn't, I suspect, cry because they felt entitled to win, but because losing was synonymous with shame, inadequacy, parental disappointment, and failure.  If you're hothoused into winning everything you do, losing is a REALLY big deal.  

clarion

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2011, 11:08:42 am »
Hence why I said that the cruelty lies not with the comp side of the equation.
Getting there...

Jaded

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2011, 11:13:07 am »
Compare and contrast:

Go out there and show them that being 'privileged' does not mean they're better than you.

Go out there and make the rich little bastards cry.



I sometimes wonder what people would moan about if Britain did become a 'classless' society.
 

They'd moan about money, because money has become synonymous with class.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Julian

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2011, 11:14:56 am »
We do have in our presence somone well qualified to comment on Grammar Schools and social mobility. The programme was bemoaning the fact that it was now unlikely that anyone from a less moneyed background could now do PPE at Oxford.
But some counties do still have selective Grammar Schools, and their results are good. One factor is that they atrract a high standard of teaching staff. Essex and Kent spring to mind. I remember reading a thread about a debating competition held at Maidstone Girl's Grammar, and the two privately-educated women wo went along to help with the judging of it seemed quite impressed by the standard, as was the proud father of the Head of History at that school.

I stopped apologizing for where my parents chose to send me to school some years ago.  ;D


Wowbagger

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Re: Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2011, 11:17:48 am »
Our experience was that there were different levels of fee-paying schools. There were some who were perfectly decent and gracious in victory or defeat. There was one in particular which was the classical stereotype I've described above. On one famous occasion their teacher was warned by an arbiter for physically threatening me! Whilst the match between our teams was in progress, and it was clearly going against them, each time I tried to get a view of a board, he deliberately stood in my way. I'd move to another board, he would stand in the way again. When I asked him to stop doing it, he rounded on me in a very aggressive fashion.

Oh, we got at them all right. These schools would invest about £100 an hour for a top IM's time and our school had me. The sad part was that when the kids left Temple Sutton and went on (mostly) to Southend High, the secondary school did nothing whatever. That was the point at which the top IM could have made a difference. I'm not a good enough chess player to be able to advance the career of a strong secondary age player - not that Southend High ever asked me.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.