Author Topic: Bye Lance  (Read 173399 times)

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2011, 10:06:57 am »
What benefit do you see coming from this?

I don't need to know that it's the best result for cycling's image to know that it has to be done.  It has to be done and the fact that it will be messy doesn't change that.

AndyK

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2011, 10:24:23 am »
On Twitter:

@ghincapie "I can confirm to you I never spoke with "60 Minutes." I have no idea where they got their information."

And:

@ghincapie "As for the substance of anything in the "60 Minutes" story, I cannot comment on anything relating to the ongoing investigation."

Rhys W

  • I'm single, bilingual
    • Cardiff Ajax
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2011, 11:47:12 am »
My take is that he probably did, but he's now retired for good. Bust dopers who are still racing, stop hunting those who've finished. What good will it do?

This is a very short-sighted view. One of the problems that cycling has now is that the "finished" dopers of the 90s are now running teams. Do you really think Bjarne Riis is doing all he can to keep his riders clean?

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2011, 12:03:17 pm »
How would that destroy cycling?  It would mean real consequences for cheats. At the moment all they have to do is benefit from the fact that testing technology lags behind doping technology.  This would remove that comfort.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2011, 12:08:01 pm »
What goes on inside your head if you won by cheating...

True, but what if they are all cheating? If that was the case then they would justify it to themselves that they still beat others who were using the same stuff therefore still won.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2011, 12:15:28 pm »
Previously perhaps a lot thought that most were cheating.  Introduce the biological passport and then it is more apparent that most are not.  Those that are using the tried and tested (pardon the pun) methods have been caught out.

In a recent CycleSport magazine it featured an interview with Friere.  He was quite damning of the Spanish media about not backing him when he wins but always criticising him when he doesn't.  He feels that because of doping that the masses of Spain believe he must be a doper or else he wouldn't win at all - and simply because he is a Spanish professional cyclist.  He has never (to my knowledge) been linked to any PED allegations or investigations.

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2011, 12:16:00 pm »
What goes on inside your head if you won by cheating...

True, but what if they are all cheating? If that was the case then they would justify it to themselves that they still beat others who were using the same stuff therefore still won.

I used to have a book of sporting quotations, compiled by the great Frank Keating, of the Grauniad. I part-recall one, which I paraphrase:-

Quote from: US Weightlifter
The only reason Alexeev has beaten me in the past is because I couldn't afford his drugs bill. Now I can and we'll see who is better - his steroids or mine.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2011, 12:20:47 pm »
What goes on inside your head if you won by cheating...

True, but what if they are all cheating? If that was the case then they would justify it to themselves that they still beat others who were using the same stuff therefore still won.

Maybe rider X took a bit more EPO than rider Y, etc, etc.  It doesn’t create a level playing field.

A single dose of EPO increases your VO2max by 7%, I’ve been told.  That’s huge.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2011, 12:21:44 pm »
I don't know about the bio-passport. I think you have to listen to people like Kohl who come clean after a bust. Bit of a contrast to people like Basso.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2011, 12:28:59 pm »
Even if Armstrong is proved to have been doping and is punished appropriately (whatever appropriate would be), I can't see that as the end of cycling or the start of a new, clean era. Cycling is like all other professional sports, the commercial interest creates other pressures on the riders and teams. What's amazing is that we haven't yet had (AFAIK) any betting scandals; race-rigging, mysterious withdrawals, etc.
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2011, 12:41:52 pm »


A single dose of EPO increases your VO2max by 7%, I’ve been told.  That’s huge.


that could be handy on that last hill in the last kilometer on an audax ride ;D

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2011, 12:46:17 pm »
I increased my VO2max by 9% by losing weight last year.  :smug:

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2011, 12:48:17 pm »
I have no clue what my VO2Max is, but I bet it's pathetic  ;D

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2011, 12:50:13 pm »
<snip> What's amazing is that we haven't yet had (AFAIK) any betting scandals; race-rigging, mysterious withdrawals, etc.

There have been many on the pro Keirin circuit in Japan, but thats a tiny part of an already minority sport, so hardly surprising it doesn't make the news.
Working my way up to inferior.

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2011, 01:04:29 pm »
I have no clue what my VO2Max is, but I bet it's pathetic   ;D

it's the most attractive on this thread ;D

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2011, 03:04:54 pm »
What goes on inside your head if you won by cheating...

The same as goes on in the head of anyone who has gained an advantage at work by something "not quite the done thing".

Pro cycling is a job; it's largely about making as much as you can in the time you've got. My view is that within the closed circle of the sport taking stuff is seen just like insider trading is seen in banking - not allowed , but we all know it goes on and probably most of us benefit from it.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #91 on: May 21, 2011, 04:40:27 pm »

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2011, 06:31:19 pm »
Did I miss the part where he failed a (another*) test???

Seriously, is there any new evidence here?

* He has failed a test in the past - despite what he said on twa**er

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2011, 07:41:27 pm »
True, but what if they are all cheating?

They are, still.  

The UCI could start taking the problem seriously, which would mean working with the WADA,  rather then keeping them at arms length and claiming to be trying to solve the problem themselves, which they demonstrably are not.   This would have to entail sanctioning cutting-edge testing with an associated risk of catching a small percentage of the innocent in the interests of catching most of  the guilty.  

Banning drug cheats from management could be made restrospective, so the likes of Riis and (soon) Bruyneel would go.

The culture change required is massive, and would require some drastic measures to implement.  Permenant WADA chaperones for every top 50 rider on major races and compulsory accomodation in open dormitories might help, as would a no-excuses implementation of athlete responsibility for their own diet, so no more protracted bollocks about eating contaminated meat.

Or cycling could just step down testing to the level of other major sports so the problem stops getting noticed.   More smokescreens along the line of the BP will give the illusion that the UCI is interested in tackling the problem, rather than following their real agenda of maintaining the status quo.

The latter is probably what will happen as it is far more compatible with the interests of the industry sport.  

The difference might evetually be made by fans and consumers rejecting the products of any sponsors associated with doping, but the opposite seems to be happening at present.

Pro cycling is a job; it's largely about making as much as you can in the time you've got. My view is that within the closed circle of the sport taking stuff is seen just like insider trading is seen in banking - not allowed , but we all know it goes on and probably most of us benefit from it.

An illuminating comment Paul..

Short clip of Tyler's interview.

I can't honestly draw any conclusions from this, but he doesn't sound too sure of himself to me.

He does come across very strangely there! Scared? Lying?

Full of regret about the olympic gold medal he just flushed down the toilet?

Rhys W

  • I'm single, bilingual
    • Cardiff Ajax
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2011, 11:13:45 pm »
Pro cycling is a job; it's largely about making as much as you can in the time you've got. My view is that within the closed circle of the sport taking stuff is seen just like insider trading is seen in banking - not allowed , but we all know it goes on and probably most of us benefit from it.

An illuminating comment Paul..

This has been my view for a while. Cycling has become big business, and big business is full of lying, backstabbing, cheating chancers. In fact, that's how you become successful in business.

The days of cycle racing being an honest route to success for talented, working class Europeans are long gone.

gonzo

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2011, 08:58:44 am »
True, but what if they are all cheating?

They are, still. 

I don't think that there are many who agree with you on that one.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2011, 09:21:47 am »
True, but what if they are all cheating?

They are, still. 

I don't think that there are many who agree with you on that one.

You think so?

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #97 on: May 22, 2011, 10:13:16 am »
True, but what if they are all cheating?

They are, still. 

I don't think that there are many who agree with you on that one.

Totally agree Gonzo.
I would not have said that 4 years ago though.
If you look at the rider performances of the Giro - Contador can go away up the Zoncolan but Nibali could not match him.
Only another Spanish fly could.
Look at Cadel Evans.  Massive force in the Giro last year - bombed at the Tour.

Either the field is becoming fairer or there are some really shit drug takers out there.  I prefer to be positive about it and believe the bio passport and the police drug raids in Italy, Belgium and Spain - that are not being overly reported - are having an effect.  The spot light is firmly on Spanish sport for all manner of PED use - sanctioned at the highest level.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #98 on: May 22, 2011, 07:12:02 pm »
So is Contador clean now?  Garzelli?  Nibali?  Cancellara? 

I just don't buy it.


simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #99 on: May 22, 2011, 07:13:25 pm »
If they're pulling w/kg outputs anywhere near Armstrong in his prime, then i doubt it.