Bye Lance

[spesh]

In fairness to Phil Liggett, at least once he's bought, he stays bought.

[Pip]

And whilst on the subject of (allegedly) paid shills, check out Phil Liggett's recent comments.

Just listened to that. Terrible.

Lionel Birnie has pointed out the financial connection Phil has:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2002/07/news/cycling-biggies-invest-in-ugandan-gold-mine_2563

Apologies for being so dense, but where does it mention Phil Liggett in this article?

[rafletcher]

And whilst on the subject of (allegedly) paid shills, check out Phil Liggett's recent comments.

Just listened to that. Terrible.

Lionel Birnie has pointed out the financial connection Phil has:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2002/07/news/cycling-biggies-invest-in-ugandan-gold-mine_2563

Apologies for being so dense, but where does it mention Phil Liggett in this article?

Look at the post from Spesh above it.

[spesh]

That Paul Sherwen is involved with the Ugandan gold mine is a given, he's mentioned it every so often during TdF commentary, but doing a google  search for "Phil Liggett + gold mine" mostly draws a blank. However, a couple of pieces on the web suggest that Phil's a partner in the same mine as Paul.

http://www.tdf100.com/2012/06/phil-liggett-40-years-at-tour-de-france_27.html

Best friends away from work, Liggett and Sherwen and their respective wives vacation together. The broadcasting duo and several current and former cyclists are partners in a gold mine in Uganda.

The fact that Phil may be an investor in the same mine as Lance is neither here nor there IMHO, there are many ways to buy influence and support, such as free meals, giving people lifts in your private jet, paid speaking engagements for Livestrong...

Oh, and here's an interesting, albeit complex map of influence: http://velorooms.com/files/ArmstrongBusinessConnectionsV2.pdf

[Justin(e)]

And whilst on the subject of (allegedly) paid shills, check out Phil Liggett's recent comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJz4kwm9mXc

Oh dear, oh deary, deary me... 

Check out the comments on tubeface:
"Phil Liggett you're a fucking embarassment. Retire.
Hearing you still trying to tow the party line in the hope that Lance gives you a reach-around is just pathetic."

[spesh]

^^^ Now there's some mental cinema best left on the cutting-room floor...

[Rig of Jarkness]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Armstrong was found guilty of doping by a properly constituted court of law.  But until that happens - if it happens at all - he remains innocent and the legitimate winner of 7 Tours.  Whatever USADA have to say on the matter is irrelevant unless tested in court.  There's a lot in Liggett's comments that ring true.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

What a load of bollocks

[JT]

What a load of bollocks

+1

There's a staggering amount of denial around.

[Exit Stage Left]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Armstrong was found guilty of doping by a properly constituted court of law.  But until that happens - if it happens at all - he remains innocent and the legitimate winner of 7 Tours.  Whatever USADA have to say on the matter is irrelevant unless tested in court.  There's a lot in Liggett's comments that ring true.

The precedent of East Germany is interesting. Admissions of doping haven't erased medal records. I'm quite interested at the moment as to how we became the next new East Germany, Australia having been the last new East Germany. Charlie Walsh and Heiko Salzwedel seem to have been the key figures in carrying the Torch of organised state sport into the new Millennium, in cycling at least.
I read an interesting polemic about the subject in general.
http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/team-gb-are-the-new-east-germany/

[Justin(e)]

Australia having been the last new East Germany.

I was in class today and our tutor (a doctor) told us how one of the team sports who won a gold medal at Sydney used blood doping to increase performance.   The details were quite specific and credible.  I like to think that "my" team are the honourable ones who don't stoop to such blatant cheating - but apparently we did (/do?). 

I think - for some - it comes down to, "if it ain't prohibited in the rules, it is ok".  My personal view is that there should be an amnesty for the people who break the rule of silence first.  That way it will destroy the trust amongst the bad guys.  If you don't come forward and own up, then you should be punished.

[henshaw11]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Armstrong was found guilty of doping by a properly constituted court of law.  But until that happens - if it happens at all - he remains innocent and the legitimate winner of 7 Tours.  Whatever USADA have to say on the matter is irrelevant unless tested in court.  There's a lot in Liggett's comments that ring true.

 
The USADA (or more generally any ADA) is there for exactly that purpose - to all intents and purposes it is a court of law as far as operation of the sport is concerned. As a pro racer you're signing up to their (and other ADOs) jurisdiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Anti-Doping_Agency

The French Cycling Federation has said it accepts his refusal to fight as an admission of guilt (and aren't interested in trying to reassign results)
http://road.cc/content/news/64891-french-cycling-federation-says-it-views-lance-armstrongs-refusal-fight-charges

As for Liggett's 'I know someone approached by the USADA being offered payment' - I think that needs putting into context against the alleged corruption in the UCI wrt LA and testing/test results. Plus there was this rather interesting incident:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-armstrong-hotel-search-cancelled-in-2005.

So it wouldn't be exactly surprising if the supposed approachee had been offered money by someone (if at all), but not the USADA..

[sg37409]

http://road.cc/content/news/64891-french-cycling-federation-says-it-views-lance-armstrongs-refusal-fight-charges

"It added that it hoped for the restitution by Armstrong of €2.95 million in prize money won at the Tour de France and other races, and that the money to be used to develop cycling at youth level and for anti-doping initiatives."

 

[Rig of Jarkness]

Time will tell.  But the USADA 'ruling' has certainly been ignored by all concerned to date.

[Gareth Rees]

Whatever USADA have to say on the matter is irrelevant unless tested in court.

Come on, keep up! Armstrong went to court arguing exactly this, and in his ruling, Judge Sparks said that USADA was in fact the proper tribunal to hear the evidence against him:

Armstrong's due process claims fail as a matter of law, and must be dismissed.

[henshaw11]

A little more on the evidence coming out at some point:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19433990

Time will tell.  But the USADA 'ruling' has certainly been ignored by all concerned to date.

err....what did I post above ?

The French Cycling Federation has said it accepts his refusal to fight as an admission of guilt (and aren't interested in trying to reassign results)
http://road.cc/content/news/64891-french-cycling-federation-says-it-views-lance-armstrongs-refusal-fight-charges

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I was in class today and our tutor (a doctor) told us how one of the team sports who won a gold medal at Sydney used blood doping to increase performance.   The details were quite specific and credible.  I like to think that "my" team are the honourable ones who don't stoop to such blatant cheating - but apparently we did (/do?). 

I think - for some - it comes down to, "if it ain't prohibited in the rules, it is ok".  My personal view is that there should be an amnesty for the people who break the rule of silence first.  That way it will destroy the trust amongst the bad guys.  If you don't come forward and own up, then you should be punished.

Not too surprising, even though it was banned in the Olympics over a decade earlier. It is difficult to test for and gives almost a guaranteed performance improvement. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that only people from foreign countries dope. Smart, personable, talented, hardworking, English-speaking athletes dope too.

[Manotea]

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that only

Able bodied athletes dope.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-29/paralympian-boosting-cheats-under-the-spotlight/4230886?section=sport

It seems a universal constant to push boundaries to excess.

[henshaw11]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12763/Liggett-generates-controversy-with-claims-Armstrong-investigation-witnesses-were-bribed.aspx

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/the-united-states-of-omerta
(Gary Imlack seems to have a more measured view..)

[Exit Stage Left]

Australia having been the last new East Germany.

I was in class today and our tutor (a doctor) told us how one of the team sports who won a gold medal at Sydney used blood doping to increase performance.   The details were quite specific and credible.  I like to think that "my" team are the honourable ones who don't stoop to such blatant cheating - but apparently we did (/do?). 

I think - for some - it comes down to, "if it ain't prohibited in the rules, it is ok".  My personal view is that there should be an amnesty for the people who break the rule of silence first.  That way it will destroy the trust amongst the bad guys.  If you don't come forward and own up, then you should be punished.

I was thinking of the East German coaches who were scattered to the four winds when the DDR institutes were closed down. Charlie Walsh in Australia had studied in East Germany in the 80s and Heiko Salzwedel moved to Australia, then to the UK, after the fall of the Wall. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiko_Salzwedel
Australian riders of that period describe a regime of 40,000 km a year but without the drugs, which crushed many ambitions. It is said that the Australians bought the East German training logs. The idea of the Australian Institute of Sport was modelled on East German practice, and inspired our performance programmes, even using ex DDR staff such as Salzwedel.
Heiko said some interesting things about the WADA rethink on Caffeine and Pseudoephedrine in 2003.

"I attended a conference in Canberra in 1998 when I was with the AIS where, amongst others, an Australian army scientist spoke about how long soldiers could go without sleeping. They tested separate groups on water, caffeine, pseudoephedrine and a combination of caffeine and pseudoephedrine. The water-only group lasted five days, the caffeine-only group seven days and the pseudoephedrine-only group lasted six days.
"But the combination group with caffeine and pseudoephedrine lasted 12 days! I was shocked about the outcome; the efficiency of the combination of caffeine and pseudoephedrine. This is real stuff - and WADA allows it now! I can already see the parents mixing pots of it."

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/riders/2003/interviews/?id=heiko_salzwedel03

Heiko has moved onto the next new East Germany, which is Russia, where the model of a ProTour team meshing with a national team is being followed, RT had a video report in March.
http://rt.com/sport/rusvelo-cycling-russia-salzwedel-kupfernagel-romanyuta-669/

The only impact so far were the Bronze medals for Olga Zabelinskaya in the TT and the Road Race.

[spesh]

News outlets are starting to unleash juicy snippets from their preview copies of Tyler Hamilton's book:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8321135/book-former-lance-armstrong-teammate-friend-turns-banal-very-ugly
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tyler-hamiltons-book-reveals-in-depth-doping-network
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/media/books/Keyes-hamilton-the-secret-race.html?168178276

Whilst all three articles do overlap, each one has different revelations contained therein. And if anyone thinks that the book is a tissue of lies from a disgraced former team mate of Armstrong's with an exe to grind, think again...

What ultimately makes the book so damning, however, is that it doesn’t require readers to put their full faith in Hamilton’s word. In the book’s preface, which details its genesis, Coyle not so subtly addresses Armstrong’s supporters by pointing out that, while the story is told through Hamilton, nine former Postal teammates agreed to cooperate with him on The Secret Race, verifying and corroborating Hamilton’s account. Nine teammates. That fact is the first punch thrown at Armstrong’s supporters—and it might be the most damaging one. Next Wednesday, when The Secret Race comes out, backers will probably make the familiar claim that Hamilton is a disgruntled, bitter ex-rival who got popped for doping and is now looking to cash in. But that doesn’t explain why nine former teammates agreed to cooperate.

EDITED - removed link to CNews omerta story (already posted upthread), added extra Tyler Hamilton book-related links.

[Rig of Jarkness]

A little more on the evidence coming out at some point:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19433990

Time will tell.  But the USADA 'ruling' has certainly been ignored by all concerned to date.

err....what did I post above ?

The French Cycling Federation has said it accepts his refusal to fight as an admission of guilt (and aren't interested in trying to reassign results)
http://road.cc/content/news/64891-french-cycling-federation-says-it-views-lance-armstrongs-refusal-fight-charges

All concerned - Armstrong himself, the UCI, the ASO.   They've all ignored the ruling to date.  In effect more of a press release than a ruling.

[mattc]

Does FCF have any power? Do they run anything?

Are the UCI and/or ASO actually "in charge"?

IAMFI!

[Honest John]

Sorry, guys and gals, but I am beginning to wonder why we're banging on about an unpleasant has-been who may or may not have doped while there are not one but two very interesting bicycle races going on, which would still be interesting if some of the riders were demonstrated to have doped.

I don't watch cycling for the doping gossip. I watch it to see clever tactics, battles against the elements and struggles between riders.

[Peter]

I understand your point HJ but this is a forum not a TV screen!