Bye Lance

[jane]

In a way,  people like me ( I confess to being one who has said the LA story was getting boring)  are probably expressing our irritation that someone like LA gets all this attention.  I would genuinely like everyone to stop talking about him, but of course I understand completely why his story is  fascinating and I will admit to being be a bit disingenuous when I complain its no longer interesting. Apologies.  I feel he (and others like him) deserve to be boring and forgotten, but it's never going to happen, I do know that.   Reading some of his comments on the OWS, he seems to be trying to carve himself a place in cycling history as some kind of tragic hero complete with his fatal flaw.
  Modern elite sport, its genesis, the psychology and economics of it, however, I do find interesting.  And I guess, he is part of the bad side of that story.  I'd like to think there was a future for elite sport without its dark side. 

[clarion]

I want this to be a turning point.  I want this to be an end to it, but I suspect it won't be.  There's too much money involved, so, even now, there are laboratories employed by teams to come up with new ways of cheating to stay one step ahead of the testing regimes, which, themselves, depend on honesty to be effective.

I think it's safe to say that Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Pantani etc all doped in some way or other, and we still revere them as heroes (even if a bit damaged).  I wish we'd had a clean sport, but I am convinced it's cleaner than it was ten years ago, and is getting better.

Meanwhile, I have no such confidence in tennis or football or athletics or many other sports which have not been the focus of such close attention on the drugs issue.

[citoyen]

Merckx tested positive for banned substances three times but there's a world of difference between his methods and Lance Armstrong's.

d.

[spesh]

Merckx tested positive for banned substances three times but there's a world of difference between his methods and Lance Armstrong's.

d.

I'll give LA this - compared to him, every other chemically-assisted racing cyclist, before and since, look like doping dilettantes. 

Not, of course, that it's a good thing...

[Veloman]

I no longer have ony of his books, if I did I would be doing the same as BRM.

I met him, shook his hand, had a chat and got a signed Livestrong t-shirt.  I'll be keeping that as I'm sure infamy is a good reason why someone might lust for it.

Along the way we have acheived more with his inspiration than if he hadn't deceived us.

And much better kit, profile etc etc etc.

[jane]

I want this to be a turning point.  I want this to be an end to it, but I suspect it won't be.  There's too much money involved, so, even now, there are laboratories employed by teams to come up with new ways of cheating to stay one step ahead of the testing regimes, which, themselves, depend on honesty to be effective.

I think it's safe to say that Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Pantani etc all doped in some way or other, and we still revere them as heroes (even if a bit damaged).  I wish we'd had a clean sport, but I am convinced it's cleaner than it was ten years ago, and is getting better.

Meanwhile, I have no such confidence in tennis or football or athletics or many other sports which have not been the focus of such close attention on the drugs issue.

Coppi was a bit of a hero for one of my uncles- I remember having a family row when I was in my late teens  and he was still trying to get me to be as singleminded about riding the bike as the rest of the cyclists in the family. He was worried I was partying too much, and feared I would soon be sinking into the decadent world of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll.     The drugs part would have been speed, as that was the drug of choice and availability at that time.  "What about Coppi?" was my reply. ( My uncle himself had told me the story about how he was supposed to have said he only doped when it was absolutely necessary- which was all the time.)
He was lost for words for at least 30 seconds. (A long time for him, believe me).

[Exit Stage Left]

Us older types still have an Amateur/Professional dichotomy. We assume that to be a pro is to sign a pact with the devil, and that even in the amateur ranks some countries will cheat massively to garner prestige. Our heroes tend to be domestic amateurs.
I can understand that anyone interested in the post 1996 world, with pros at the Olympics, will tend to view the whole arena of cycling as ideally a level playing field. But those with an interest before that sees two seperate arenas, neither of which are flat at an international level.

[Feline]

I'm glad I stayed up to watch it, because I really wanted to watch his body language as he spoke. When Oprah first started talking and Lance put his hand over his mouth it wasn't looking good, but then he seemed to win an internal battle with himself and speak honestly. He seemed a lot more self aware than I had suspected, and knew he had acted like a total twat.

I have to confess to being a bit of an Oprah fan. I think she is much cleverer than she appears. She doesn't patronise the audience, just asks the questions and lets you make your own mind up. Anyone with a more adversarial interview style would probably have brought out Lance's adversarial self-protective side and made him get arsey and clam up. Oprah is clever because to get the most authentic account out of someone like Lance you need to make them feel you have at least some sympathy for them.

I actually got the feeling that there is a little bit of him that is relieved to be able to tell the truth, and would have preferred to be able to answer all the specific questions he had been coached not to for legal reasons. He only ever looked truly uncomfortable in the interview when he was struggling to work out how to explain something without mentioning one of the forbidden topics. The only thing he said that I don't believe was true was that he was clean in 2009. All the evidence with the bio passports points to the contrary. Plus why on earth would someone who had a successful career through doping come back from retirement to ride clean against other riders who he would have known were still doping? That just doesn't make sense. LA does not enter races to lose.

What was most odd for me was that at the end of it I felt less hatred for the man than I expected. At least he was not a coward in this. It also makes the achievements of the few riders who were probably riding clean so much more epic. There can't be that many of them, but Robert Millar and Jens Voigt have my vote.

[citoyen]

Us older types still have an Amateur/Professional dichotomy. We assume that to be a pro is to sign a pact with the devil, and that even in the amateur ranks some countries will cheat massively to garner prestige. Our heroes tend to be domestic amateurs.

I have to admit, I found the Reg Harris biography a bit of an eye-opener. He certainly knew what it meant to be a "pro".

d.

[clarion]

I'm not sure those two were/are clean.  How can we be sure?  I hope so.  Robert has been an inspiring cyclist for me, even though, as a skinny climber, his riding was nothing like mine.

[Nuncio]

I am in blood
Stepp'd in so far, that, should I wade no more,
Returning were as tedious as go o'er.

Her husband said that.  Sorry, couldn't let it go. Carry on. And on.

[Feline]

I'm not sure those two were/are clean.  How can we be sure?  I hope so.  Robert has been an inspiring cyclist for me, even though, as a skinny climber, his riding was nothing like mine.

You're right, we can't be 100% sure.

But what I know of both as people wouldn't be consistent with taking drugs or lying about it IMO. The day I find out Jens has doped will be the day I stop following pro cycling! Robert Millar was a total non-conformist and was obsessive about what he did and did not put into his body in an era where this just wasn't the norm. I honestly believe he had more integrity than to dope. It wouldn't be the first time I've been deluded about someones 'goodness' though 

[Lordy]

I agree Feline, but because of whats now coming out even 'shut up legs' is tainted by this, for me.  Look at his past team members and managers.  I would have put him in the same bracket as Hincapie 12 months ago.

[Exit Stage Left]

I always assumed that Obree left Le Groupement because he wouldn't dope, Millar was at Le Groupement.

In that interview, after revealing how, after his exploits on the track had resulted in “parachuting me right into the middle of the professional world,” his plain talking and anti-doping stance meant that his professional road career was over pretty much as soon as it started.
 
“This one Italian guy in particular asked, quite casually, ‘What did you use for the Hour record?’ and when I said ‘Nothing,’ he literally waved his hand up and down as the Italians do, said ‘amatore’ [amateur] and turned away in disgust,” he explained.
 
“I wasn’t taking drugs so I wasn’t taking my sport seriously, and that’s a genuine attitude I met with – you’re not taking your job seriously because you’re not willing to take substances to make you go as fast as you humanly can.
 
“I did suffer a terrible resentment in pro cycling, I felt I was robbed of it, because I wasn’t welcome in the pro peloton at all after the whole debacle with Le Groupement  “because obviously they realised, ‘He’s not going to play the game.’

http://road.cc/content/news/70004-graeme-obree-speaks-out-doping-and-bonus-video-airships

[TimC]

Then it all just seemed too good to be true, too much of a American Fairy Story. 

It is an American Fairy Story. It's the Wizard of Oz. We invest our faith in Lance, who inspires us, and we transform ourselves by unleashing what was within us all the time. At the end the curtain slips, and we see an ordinary man. Along the way we have acheived more with his inspiration than if he hadn't deceived us.
It was only ever an entertainment anyway, the aim of the Tour isn't to find a true and unsullied hero, it's to sell copies of L'Equipe, and to harvest all the associated media money. It was the greed of the International Olympic Committee in allowing pro athletes to compete that caused the confusion.
I certainly don't feel betrayed.

I agree. This isn't life or death, this is sport - and sport intended as entertainment. One of the best entertainers got caught out pulling a few tricks to be the top of the pile. Getting caught hasn't removed the entertainment we enjoyed while he was doing it - and the fun we had at the time discussing whether or not he (and many others) had cheated. Any competitive activity with great rewards will always encourage people to find a way to improve their chances - legal or illegal. Some of those ways may be a mite dangerous - but if the sport is dangerous anyway, what's there to get too upset about?

I have to say I am a little surprised about the level of self-righteous posturing that's going on here and elsewhere about this. Lance Armstrong cheated. How big a deal is that, really? 40-odd hostages were killed today by an over-zealous army - now that's a big deal. LA is just sport, in every sense of the word.

[spesh]

I think it was Robert Millar who once described Le Groupement as being more like a group seance than a cycling team.

[Feline]

I think it was Robert Millar who once described Le Groupement as being more like a group seance than a cycling team.

 

[TimC]

I want this to be a turning point.  I want this to be an end to it, but I suspect it won't be.  There's too much money involved, so, even now, there are laboratories employed by teams to come up with new ways of cheating to stay one step ahead of the testing regimes, which, themselves, depend on honesty to be effective.

I think it's safe to say that Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Pantani etc all doped in some way or other, and we still revere them as heroes (even if a bit damaged).  I wish we'd had a clean sport, but I am convinced it's cleaner than it was ten years ago, and is getting better.

Meanwhile, I have no such confidence in tennis or football or athletics or many other sports which have not been the focus of such close attention on the drugs issue.

You know what, Clarion? Do you (or I, or anyone) really care? I mean, really? Oh, it's important when you get caught up in the heat of the moment, but step back and... it's just a game. A game between teams, between competitors, and between the rule-makers and the rule-breakers. Meantime we get entertained - or not, as suits us. Turn off the telly, and it's just not important.

[spesh]

I think it was Robert Millar who once described Le Groupement as being more like a group seance than a cycling team.

 

Found the exact quote, which is actually "we don't have team meetings, we have séances."

Source: In Search Of Robert Millar (Richard Moore)

[Feline]

I think it was Robert Millar who once described Le Groupement as being more like a group seance than a cycling team.

 

Found the exact quote, which is actually "we don't have team meetings, we have séances."

Source: In Search Of Robert Millar (Richard Moore)

I've read that book but had forgotten that exact quote, it's hilarious. He's such an eccentric he could easily have got away with being the odd one out on any team in terms of doping so long as he could shine on the bike I think. Obree's problem was that he cared and couldn't ignore what the others were doing like Robert seemed happy to do.

[mzjo]

Well, Lance is a proven liar.

I don't like his credibility 

I don't feel any sympathy for the man, but I do think there is some value in pointing out that the only reason it is 'the greatest sporting fraud' is because he won. There are scores of other riders who did exactly the same thing. That is not to try and mitigate that it was cheating and that there are people who weren't cheated...just probably not anyone in the top half of the GC.

I find myself continually wondering what is the difference between US Postal and Festina? Is it that; that Festina didn't win, while US Postal did? Or is it that the Festina riders were caught between a rock and a hard place and owned up a lot faster (with the exception of Virenque)? Or that Festina was a much shorter episode? Or that there wasn't any evidence that other people's lives were destroyed in the same vindictive way that they were with LA?
Perhaps if LA and co had been shut up for 24 hours "en garde à vue" (wearing nothing more than their underpants and with some thuglike french policeman threatening to cut off various body parts to look for drugs) the whole shambles might have been long finished.

[Andrew]

I wonder home much of "a game" Christophe Bassons found it? Or Gilberto Simoni? Or Betsy Andreu? Or Emma O'Reilly?

Agreed, there are more important things but neither is it as trivial as the scoreline in a football match.

[Nuncio]

Well, this is what Betsy Andreu thought: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/WTrkBRwT5Uc&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/WTrkBRwT5Uc&rel=1</a>

[mzjo]

There is one thing he is absolutely right about. In a particular decade he was the best and he doped. So anyone who wanted to beat him would have had to dope as well. In other words, by doping he ensured that the winner, whoever it might be, had to be a doper! It's what you had to do to win. Self-fulfilling prophesy

[LEE]

This isn't life or death, this is sport - and sport intended as entertainment. One of the best entertainers got caught out pulling a few tricks to be the top of the pile. Getting caught hasn't removed the entertainment we enjoyed while he was doing it - and the fun we had at the time discussing whether or not he (and many others) had cheated.

Yes it did.  Well it did for me, remove the entertainment that is.
The entertainment I was looking for was seeing clean cyclists racing against each other.  I HATED not being able to believe extraordinary performances.

LA's extraordinary performances continue to taint performances of people like Wiggins, "Yeah..but he's probably doping..they all are".

I didn't enjoy, one bit, the cloud hanging over the sport or discussing it.  I found it all rather joyless.