Author Topic: Bye Lance  (Read 286870 times)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1825 on: 22 April, 2014, 10:55:39 am »
The vigour with which USADA is pursuing USPS is proportionate to the extent of their cheating and how much they gained from it, compared to other teams.

This is all set out clearly in the Reasoned Decision they published last year.

Anyway, you can't just say "apart from the 7 wins" as if it's an insignificant side issue. It's a pretty key fact.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

fuzzy

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1826 on: 22 April, 2014, 11:03:51 am »
Yes, I agree the 7 wins are a significant factor but, I would feel a bit picked on looking at the papering over the cracks that has gone on before the vim and vigour exhibited by USADA.

Not that I am defending the likes of Bruyneel or Armstrong. I just want to see those with a dodgy past dealt with.

Those that HTFU and fess up of their own volition should be shown a bit of mercy commensurate with their level of sin. Those that stick their heads in the sand and deny- fuck em. Get rid.

I would have been acceptable of mercy in the way of a 3-4 year ban for Armstrong if he had been a man about things before his hand was forced.

Andrew

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1827 on: 22 April, 2014, 12:25:15 pm »
Anyway, this is sport we're talking about, not a violation of human rights. What happens in a court of law isn't relevant.

Exactly that. Different requirements, burdens, standards etc.

JB is toxic anyway. He'll not work with a cycling team again, regardless of any ban - nobody would touch him, he's part of the 'old era'. Cycling still offers an income for him but it'll never be hands on.   

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1828 on: 22 April, 2014, 12:54:08 pm »
Right decision.  Many years too late.
Getting there...

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1829 on: 22 April, 2014, 01:29:51 pm »
Anyway, this is sport we're talking about, not a violation of human rights. What happens in a court of law isn't relevant.

Exactly that. Different requirements, burdens, standards etc.

JB is toxic anyway. He'll not work with a cycling team again, regardless of any ban - nobody would touch him, he's part of the 'old era'. Cycling still offers an income for him but it'll never be hands on.   

Different requirements, burdens and standards? Really? Seems to me that any verdict and penalties must be legally sound or they risk being successfully challenged in a court of law. It's not good enough to say, "well, we all know he was in it up to his neck, so who cares who pulls the trigger or how it's done?". That's kangaroo 'justice'. I've no desire to defend Armstrong, Bruyneel, or anyone else proven to have been involved in doping, but I do want to be convinced that their prosecutions have been properly and fairly handled.  Otherwise in what way are the prosecutors better than the cheats?

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1830 on: 22 April, 2014, 01:43:54 pm »
This, from A Man for all Seasons.

Quote
William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!

Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?

William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!

Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Rust never sleeps

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1831 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:31:59 pm »
Different requirements, burdens and standards? Really? Seems to me that any verdict and penalties must be legally sound or they risk being successfully challenged in a court of law.

People have been banned from sport for merely acting suspiciously (eg Michael Rasmussen, Rio Ferdinand). I'm sure if such bans were not "legally sound" we'd have heard about it by now.

Of course, Rasmussen eventually admitted that he'd been up to no good, somewhat belatedly, but there was no firm evidence against him at the time.

I look forward to JB's appeal being laughed out of court.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

fuzzy

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1832 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:39:50 pm »
Neither Ferdinand or Rassmusen were banned for acting suspiciously'. Both fell foul of specified requirments- Ferdinand to attend a drugs test, Rassmusen to let the testing agency know where he would be.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1833 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:42:52 pm »
Neither Ferdinand or Rassmusen were banned for acting suspiciously'. Both fell foul of specified requirments- Ferdinand to attend a drugs test, Rassmusen to let the testing agency know where he would be.

Q. Why is failing to observe this requirement deemed worthy of a ban?
A. Because it's seen as suspicious behaviour.

QED
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1834 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:46:13 pm »
Different requirements, burdens and standards? Really? Seems to me that any verdict and penalties must be legally sound or they risk being successfully challenged in a court of law.

Exactly. You can have what rules you like in the playground, but things get serious in the real world.

For example, you can't fine someone millions of euros just beacuse they didn't wear the sponsor's shirt, and it's "in the rules".
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1835 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:46:59 pm »
Different requirements, burdens and standards? Really? Seems to me that any verdict and penalties must be legally sound or they risk being successfully challenged in a court of law.

People have been banned from sport for merely acting suspiciously (eg Michael Rasmussen, Rio Ferdinand). I'm sure if such bans were not "legally sound" we'd have heard about it by now.

Of course, Rasmussen eventually admitted that he'd been up to no good, somewhat belatedly, but there was no firm evidence against him at the time.

I look forward to JB's appeal being laughed out of court.

I guess a 'sport' can take the ball away from anyone it doesn't want to play - that's how it works in most playgrounds - but if you're going to adopt the clothes of a legal process, you'd better be ready to justify your methodology - in a court of law if called to do so by those affected by your decisions. The way that both the UCI and USADA have gone about some of their business in the last few years seems to have been less than ideal, and eventually someone with balls and money will stand up and fight for a proper process. The thing is, there's no need for the process to be vulnerable to legal questioning if, as suggested elsewhere, the worldwide ban was imposed by the international governing organisation, not by a national body. If other national bodies don't ratify that ban, what strength has it?

I suggest that if you intend to use rules to deprive people of their living, it is potentially a human rights issue, so you'd better be on legally solid ground.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1836 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:52:39 pm »
For example, you can't fine someone millions of euros just beacuse they didn't wear the sponsor's shirt, and it's "in the rules".

I bet you can. Not quite the same thing but Nicklas Bendtner was fined £80,000 for exposing a non-approved sponsor's logo on his pants during a foopball match. Nothing illegal about what he did but clearly against the rules of the sport.

Out of interest, I've just done a bit of googling to find miscarriages of justice in anti-doping cases. One name that came up was baseball star Ryan Braun, who tested positive for elevated testosterone and was given a 50 match ban, but had it overturned due to an irregularity in the testing procedure.

Of course, he was later banned again after it turned out he was involved in the Biogenesis scandal. Doh!
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1837 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:53:10 pm »
I suggest that if you intend to use rules to deprive people of their living, it is potentially a human rights issue, so you'd better be on legally solid ground.

As I said, I look forward to JB's appeal being laughed out of court.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1838 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:54:56 pm »
if, as suggested elsewhere, the worldwide ban was imposed by the international governing organisation, not by a national body. If other national bodies don't ratify that ban, what strength has it?

As mentioned already, USADA is an agent of WADA.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1839 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:56:28 pm »
Look, people, if any of you think USADA and/or WADA are the bad guys in this case, you really need to take a long, hard look at yourself.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1840 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:56:48 pm »
You may be convinced of someone's guilt, and you may be able to prove it. I'm sure Bruyneel is guilty as charged. However, if you really want to make sure his case is dealt with and he doesn't bounce back into the sport, make damn sure the process used to remove him is unchallengeable. From where I stand (which may well be short of the full Global Overview), that doesn't seem to be the case here.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1841 on: 22 April, 2014, 02:58:46 pm »
make damn sure the process used to remove him is unchallengeable.

It is. I look forward to his appeal being laughed out of court.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1842 on: 22 April, 2014, 03:00:08 pm »
Look, people, if any of you think USADA and/or WADA are the bad guys in this case, you really need to take a long, hard look at yourself.
Right. We've all suggested that they are nefarious bastards that don't care for the sport.

Our point is that the process must be seen to be fair and just. There is some doubt about that, and not just in my mind. And it's something that could be relatively easily sorted.

But, y'know, whatever. Neither you, Bruyneel, USADA or the UCI are going to spoil my day any further!

fuzzy

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1843 on: 22 April, 2014, 03:00:38 pm »
Look, people, if any of you think USADA and/or WADA are the bad guys in this case, you really need to take a long, hard look at yourself.

I don't think anyone here thinks WADA/ USADA are the bad guys. We just want to make sure that they don't give the slimy turds the slimy turding room to slimy turd their way out of the slimy turd pile they are in :thumbsup:

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1844 on: 22 April, 2014, 03:01:14 pm »
For example, you can't fine someone millions of euros just beacuse they didn't wear the sponsor's shirt, and it's "in the rules".

I bet you can. Not quite the same thing but Nicklas Bendtner was fined £80,000 for exposing a non-approved sponsor's logo on his pants during a foopball match. Nothing illegal about what he did but clearly against the rules of the sport.
Let me get this right (it's important that everyone involved knows the rules):
You're willing to bet me that £80,000 is millions of euros ?

Shall we stick to a gentlemanly Ayrton? I don't think I have £80k to stake on this, sadly! :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1845 on: 22 April, 2014, 03:04:15 pm »
Different requirements, burdens and standards? Really? Seems to me that any verdict and penalties must be legally sound or they risk being successfully challenged in a court of law.

People have been banned from sport for merely acting suspiciously (eg Michael Rasmussen, Rio Ferdinand). I'm sure if such bans were not "legally sound" we'd have heard about it by now.

Of course, Rasmussen eventually admitted that he'd been up to no good, somewhat belatedly, but there was no firm evidence against him at the time.

I look forward to JB's appeal being laughed out of court.

I guess a 'sport' can take the ball away from anyone it doesn't want to play - that's how it works in most playgrounds - but if you're going to adopt the clothes of a legal process, you'd better be ready to justify your methodology - in a court of law if called to do so by those affected by your decisions. The way that both the UCI and USADA have gone about some of their business in the last few years seems to have been less than ideal, and eventually someone with balls and money will stand up and fight for a proper process. The thing is, there's no need for the process to be vulnerable to legal questioning if, as suggested elsewhere, the worldwide ban was imposed by the international governing organisation, not by a national body. If other national bodies don't ratify that ban, what strength has it?

I suggest that if you intend to use rules to deprive people of their living, it is potentially a human rights issue, so you'd better be on legally solid ground.
A human rights issue? He's being banned from earning a living in his chosen career because he's broken the rules of that profession. It might be considered analogous to a doctor being struck off the GMC register for some misdeed - you'd have to be sure they did it and it was serious enough to warrant striking off and that the striking off was done according to all established procedure, but it's hardly a human rights issue.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1846 on: 22 April, 2014, 03:05:49 pm »
Our point is that the process must be seen to be fair and just. There is some doubt about that

No there isn't.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1847 on: 22 April, 2014, 03:10:50 pm »
Let me get this right (it's important that everyone involved knows the rules):
You're willing to bet me that £80,000 is millions of euros ?

This is silly even by your standards, matt. Sorry if my point went over your head.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1848 on: 22 April, 2014, 03:12:20 pm »
We just want to make sure that they don't give the slimy turds the slimy turding room to slimy turd their way out of the slimy turd pile they are in :thumbsup:

Don't worry. It won't happen. Travis Tygart is a beacon of righteousness and probity. There is no doubt about the soundness of the case against Bruyneel.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

fuzzy

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1849 on: 22 April, 2014, 03:15:25 pm »
We just want to make sure that they don't give the slimy turds the slimy turding room to slimy turd their way out of the slimy turd pile they are in :thumbsup:

Don't worry. It won't happen. Travis Tygart is a beacon of righteousness and probity. There is no doubt about the soundness of the case against Bruyneel.

Once bitten- twice wossname.

Being a fan of this fantastic sport of riding a bike, I am now a bit wary of trusting folk to do the right thing. I thought Lance was righteous FFS  :-[