Bye Lance

[Bledlow]

"UCI colluded with Armstrong", eh?
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/09/lance-armstrong-uci-colluded-circ-report-cycling?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

[woollypigs]

http://inrng.com/2015/03/the-circ-report/ is a good read.

[sojournermike]

That is very dodgy. Nobody who is already world-class drops that much weight and matches or increases their power output.

A lot of esoteric stuff about sports nutrition was discovered in the couple of years before that win which allowed him to drop the weight, although it must've hurt his power (and the mental will to do it must've been crazy). It was telling that it didn't take him long to put it back on afterwards.

I'd be interested to read that. I was interested to hear Dave Brailsford observe that, 'we know that you can race for 4 weeks at 4% body fat', but unless Wiggins was carrying something like 15% beforehand, which seems unlikely for a pro cyclist he has lost some lean mass. To then increase power requires either increased strength or cadence or both. Dr Ferrari made similar observations about Froome and Mo Farrah recently suggesting they were 'unhealthily thin'

Would be interesting to know the mechanics. Cycling may make this more possible than running as gears allow a higher cadence and so increased power potential at any given speed.

[mattc]

"strength" is a bit of a slippery term.
(There is the issue of fast/slow twitch fibres- but I think we can ignore this when looking at 1-hour efforts (or 6hour stages) as required for GC contenders.cos its basically all slow-twitch)

More importantly ,because their muscles are never operating at peak power or peak force, I don't think sustainable power correlates directly with muscle mass.

[Not A Sports Scientist]

[woollypigs]

This thread will do just fine. Looks like Bjarne Riis is getting the kick according to cyclingtips - http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/03/report-riis-suspended-by-tinkov-could-dane-be-on-his-way-out-of-the-sport/

[Veloman]

^^^^^^

And not before time.

Self confessed doper in charge of riders who have doped.  Real credibility for the sport - NOT!

[Nuncio]

Except that the suspension is probably nothing to do with Riis' past and the Danish investigation. It's more to do with the clash between team owner (who seems to want to manage) and the team manager (who seems happy to collect a big salary and not do much for it, according to rumours).

[Veloman]

As long as the sport is rid of him then not bothered under what circumstances he departs, I would just be happy to see him go.

[sojournermike]

Well, that approach would also rule out tennis, golf, rugby, football, boxing, swimming, skiing, gymnastics, baseball, american football, wrestling etc etc...

I think the big shock will be Jamaican Athletics.

They came to dominate sprinting but have absolutely no advantage over the US, in terms of training, sports science, pool of available athletes, athletes' body type or potential, other than a less stringent drugs-testing regime.

I would not be at all surprised to find a "Dr Ferrari" in Jamaican athletics.

I find it inconceivable that anyone should be shocked at any forthcoming revelations of doping in Jamaican athletics. Only slightly less surprising than revelations about distance athletes that train with Kenyans or with Salazar . Not a few high profile athletes have failed to stay in the hotel they said they would during off season training in his camp.
R
I should say that I love athletics. David Rudisha's Olympic final world record was one of the most beautiful runs I have ever been privileged to see. What is sad is that no one knows if the field is level, until we know someone has cheate.  The doubt makes it even harder new entrants to survive and integrity is an uncommon virtue. Still, it's a market and that's how they work if unrestrained.

A bit shocked to find this post from a few months back when I searched for Salazar to see if anyone else saw the Panorama program the other night. Quite a few could come unraveled in this storm - not least Nike's ongoing sponsorship of 'tainted' coaches and athletes.

Am a bit sad to see the UK Nike squad's commentary around it all though - Coe, Cram and Radcliffe all appearing surprised when the rumours have been circulating in the world of athletics for years. Mo Farah, too, doesn't appear to have done himself any favours with his apparent dishonesty about when he heard about the allegations.

Time will tell, but it has the feel of something that could open up a lot of athletics as it will leave the 'like to be considered clean' nations as exposed as the less sophisticated.

[Veloman]

Am a bit sad to see the UK Nike squad's commentary around it all though - Coe, Cram and Radcliffe all appearing surprised when the rumours have been circulating in the world of athletics for years.

Perhaps they need to appear surprised.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Just PR for the gullible and needs to be treated as such.

[sojournermike]

Just PR for the gullible and needs to be treated as such.

Am a bit sad to see the UK Nike squad's commentary around it all though - Coe, Cram and Radcliffe all appearing surprised when the rumours have been circulating in the world of athletics for years.

Perhaps they need to appear surprised.

Indeed. Damage management.

[sg37409]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cycling/33090919

 

[sojournermike]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cycling/33090919

 

'Shamed cyclist Lance Armstrong has compared himself to Voldemort, Harry Potter's foe in the fictional novels.'

That would be 'the evil wizard, Voldemort'

Not sure that's really a fair comparison Lance. World class athlete, tremendous chemist, organised to the point of obsession, shameless cheat and lier but not 'the evil wizard'

In fairness, Lance has been treated differently from a lot of others and it still seems endemic

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/06/the-secret-pro-on-the-giro-there-were-days-when-youd-just-despair/

but it just isn't right that the playing field isn't level and that any aspiring athlete who wishes to compete has to make a choice of whether to remain within the rules or to join the PED users or even to enter the 'grey zone'

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named: Rowling got the idea for this from two 1950s London gangsters called the Kray Twins. "The story goes that people didn’t speak the name Kray. You just didn’t mention it. You didn’t talk about them, because retribution was so brutal and bloody. I think this is an impressive demonstration of strength, that you can convince someone not to use your name. Impressive in the sense that demonstrates how deep the level of fear is that you can inspire. It’s not something to be admired." (TLC). As soon as Voldemort took control of the Ministry in 1997, he reinforced this fear by putting a taboo on speaking his name. Anyone brave enough to say 'Voldemort' would have their locations immediately revealed to "snatchers" or other enforcement squads who would come and take you into custody (DH).

OK, so not as bad as the Kray twins.  I accept that.

Best book I have read on the era is Tyler Hamilton's account co-written with Dan Coyle:

"The Secret Race: Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France: Doping, Cover-ups, and Winning at All Costs"

If TH is to be believed then yes, he-who-must-not-be-named did use fear to impose his will and yes he was different from other cyclists.  No remorse, no genuine repentance IMO.  He may not be Voldemort but he is like a zombie that keeps coming back.   

[sojournermike]

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named: Rowling got the idea for this from two 1950s London gangsters called the Kray Twins. "The story goes that people didn’t speak the name Kray. You just didn’t mention it. You didn’t talk about them, because retribution was so brutal and bloody. I think this is an impressive demonstration of strength, that you can convince someone not to use your name. Impressive in the sense that demonstrates how deep the level of fear is that you can inspire. It’s not something to be admired." (TLC). As soon as Voldemort took control of the Ministry in 1997, he reinforced this fear by putting a taboo on speaking his name. Anyone brave enough to say 'Voldemort' would have their locations immediately revealed to "snatchers" or other enforcement squads who would come and take you into custody (DH).

OK, so not as bad as the Kray twins.  I accept that.

Best book I have read on the era is Tyler Hamilton's account co-written with Dan Coyle:

"The Secret Race: Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France: Doping, Cover-ups, and Winning at All Costs"

If TH is to be believed then yes, he-who-must-not-be-named did use fear to impose his will and yes he was different from other cyclists.  No remorse, no genuine repentance IMO.  He may not be Voldemort but he is like a zombie that keeps coming back.   

There is an impression of certain characteristics, including a lack of fear and a lack of guilt, combined with a manipulative and completely focused approach to getting what he wants. That is the only goal and it doesn't matter what is necessary to achieve it. If these impressions are correct, which they may not be of course, they mark out a particular extreme in the range of 'normal humanity'

[fuzzy]

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named: Rowling got the idea for this from two 1950s London gangsters called the Kray Twins. "The story goes that people didn’t speak the name Kray. You just didn’t mention it. You didn’t talk about them, because retribution was so brutal and bloody. I think this is an impressive demonstration of strength, that you can convince someone not to use your name. Impressive in the sense that demonstrates how deep the level of fear is that you can inspire. It’s not something to be admired." (TLC). As soon as Voldemort took control of the Ministry in 1997, he reinforced this fear by putting a taboo on speaking his name. Anyone brave enough to say 'Voldemort' would have their locations immediately revealed to "snatchers" or other enforcement squads who would come and take you into custody (DH).

OK, so not as bad as the Kray twins.  I accept that.

Best book I have read on the era is Tyler Hamilton's account co-written with Dan Coyle:

"The Secret Race: Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France: Doping, Cover-ups, and Winning at All Costs"

If TH is to be believed then yes, he-who-must-not-be-named did use fear to impose his will and yes he was different from other cyclists.  No remorse, no genuine repentance IMO.  He may not be Voldemort but he is like a zombie that keeps coming back.   

There is an impression of certain characteristics, including a lack of fear and a lack of guilt, combined with a manipulative and completely focused approach to getting what he wants. That is the only goal and it doesn't matter what is necessary to achieve it. If these impressions are correct, which they may not be of course, they mark out a particular extreme in the range of 'normal humanity'

If Lance had been involved in another field of expertise, be it industry, commerce or just plain old being a member of society, his single minded self centered approach could have resulted in the type of tactics that would have a forensic psychologist diagnosing him as a sociopath.....

[MartinC]

If Lance had been involved in another field of expertise, be it industry, commerce or just plain old being a member of society, his single minded self centered approach could have resulted in the type of tactics that would have a forensic psychologist diagnosing him as a sociopath.....

..................or a hedge fund manager.

[Andrew]

Sorry people, I've tried but I really cannot find any sympathy for him within me, not a shred. Despite his cries of 'unfair'. He rode a wave of popularity that was equally unjust, this is merely the flipside.

[Mr Larrington]

I read Juliet Macur's book "Cycle Of Lies" while in the Gulag last year and was atruck by the parallels between Armstrong's behaviours and those of typical drug addicts.

[Legs]

Any cyclist I have seen retire, looked much fuller/rounder a few weeks later. Steve Redgrave, OK a rower, had a funny pot belly in his first interview after he retired. Even I put some Kg on, very fast, when not cycling simply because it is so very hard to stop eating.

The Cannibal spent some time, post retirement, looking like he had consumed the entire population of a small country.

Hard to imagine this guy ripping it up at the Grand Tours in the 90s

[citoyen]

That's what too much orange juice does to you.

[rafletcher]

There is an impression of certain characteristics, including a lack of fear and a lack of guilt, combined with a manipulative and completely focused approach to getting what he wants. That is the only goal and it doesn't matter what is necessary to achieve it. If these impressions are correct, which they may not be of course, they mark out a particular extreme in the range of 'normal humanity'

Monomaniac, not sociopath. The same "condition" as Robert Millar was diagnosed with - and I suspect many many other (and all the successful) pro sports people. "My sport above all else".

[sojournermike]

There is an impression of certain characteristics, including a lack of fear and a lack of guilt, combined with a manipulative and completely focused approach to getting what he wants. That is the only goal and it doesn't matter what is necessary to achieve it. If these impressions are correct, which they may not be of course, they mark out a particular extreme in the range of 'normal humanity'

Monomaniac, not sociopath. The same "condition" as Robert Millar was diagnosed with - and I suspect many many other (and all the successful) pro sports people. "My sport above all else".

Psychopath

Comment about my sport above all else relate to Sean Kelly's (corrected I think) alleged comment to his wife when she complained because he told her not to lean on the bonnet of his car:

'you alway put the car first before me'

'no, the bike comes first'

[spesh]

Hard to imagine this guy ripping it up at the Grand Tours in the 90s

It looks like Berzin's selling cars as a sideline from being a Christopher Biggins stunt double! 

His Grand Tour career was perhaps somewhat briefer than we remember, 1994-1995 was about as good as it got for him, and he was possibly losing form as early as 1996.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeni_Berzin