Author Topic: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate  (Read 6055 times)

Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« on: March 12, 2011, 07:47:33 am »
By now most of you will have heard of my most excellant Leeds-Carlisle-Leeds Perm, some have actually entered and I thank you for that. It was brought to my attention that those crafty Highways Agency people in league with civil engineers and navvies are conspiring to make life hard for riders. A bridge is being closed that's on the route and it's replacement is not yet ready. So what does a responsible organiser do ? contact all riders who have so far unused entries and warn them ? Providing an alternative ? nothing ?

What would other perm organisers do ? what would riders expect ?

thankfully this will not affect my other perm the ME Northallerton-Carlisle-Northallerton 300 which will hit the streets in the next month or two, nor the ME Brief Encounter 300 which will hopefully debut by the end of the year if I can be arsed to ride it and make the routesheet.

Billy Weir

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2011, 07:55:28 am »
Strictly speaking, I don't *think* you need do anything (as the route sheet is a suggestion not compulsory).  Riders are responsible for finding their own way between A and B.

That said, as an organiser I would email and suggest an alternative.  And as a rider, I'd appreciate it (borderline expect it).

Martin

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2011, 10:39:19 am »
depends a lot on how much extra km the rider will do if he just turns up at the closed road and has to divert rather than knowing beforehand. Is the whole bridge out? definitely no temporary footpath/bridleway alternative?

AndyH

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2011, 10:49:48 am »
....... (as the route sheet is a suggestion not compulsory) .......

I've got it in my skull that the route is advisory for a calendar event and mandatory for a perm. I don't know why I think this, is it wrong?

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2011, 10:55:34 am »

I've got it in my skull that the route is advisory for a calendar event and mandatory for a perm. I don't know why I think this, is it wrong?

You are wrong, though I'd like to see a return to compulsory routes.

As for the bridge, I'd email try to contact potential riders, but wouldn't agonise too much over it.

Martin

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2011, 10:56:27 am »
....... (as the route sheet is a suggestion not compulsory) .......

I've got it in my skull that the route is advisory for a calendar event and mandatory for a perm. I don't know why I think this, is it wrong?

yes it's wrong; all AUK events are Allure Libre which means you are free to take any route between controls. But the organiser's route has been risk assessed; you stray from it at your own responsibility.

Martin

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2011, 11:00:42 am »

I've got it in my skull that the route is advisory for a calendar event and mandatory for a perm. I don't know why I think this, is it wrong?

You are wrong, though I'd like to see a return to compulsory routes.

but how do you make a route compulsory on a perm without extra proofs of passage?
I personally like being able to put in little diversions (not shortcuts) to busy or less pleasant bits of road the organiser may have missed.

mattc

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Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2011, 11:03:08 am »
knowing the Orgs that I do, I would be surprised not to be notified if there was more than A Few km diversion. But I wouldn't be disgruntled.

I would treat a perm like a private ride, so would try to be aware of local issues (I would have to be far from home e.g. Severn Bridge before this could affect me in a big way although TBH I'd probably catch the train across in that example!)



- ... though I'd like to see a return to compulsory routes ...

- but how do you make a route compulsory on a perm without extra proofs of passage?
I personally like being able to put in little diversions (not shortcuts) to busy or less pleasant bits of road the organiser may have missed.


All aboard - hang on tight!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 11:05:41 am »
...But the organiser's route has been risk assessed; you stray from it at your own responsibility.

I'd disagree with that, in as much as you ride on any highway at your own risk, whether a designated AUK route or not. If something goes wrong, it's between you and the highway authority or the other road-user (or your very own fault). Nothing to do with the organiser.

Billy Weir

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 11:10:27 am »
I'd like to see a return to compulsory routes.

Thank god you don't have a position of any influence in AUK  *smile*

Salvatore

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Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 11:51:40 am »


 Allure Libre which means you are free to take any route between controls.
No . The phrase 'Allure Libre' refers to riding at the pace you wish (within the min and max speeds), in contrast to team 'Euraudax' events where everyone rides together at a set speed. Nothing to do with the route between controls.
Quote
et avec John, excellent lecteur de road-book, on s'en est sortis sans erreur

Manotea

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Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2011, 11:56:52 am »

I've got it in my skull that the route is advisory for a calendar event and mandatory for a perm. I don't know why I think this, is it wrong?

You are wrong, though I'd like to see a return to compulsory routes.

but how do you make a route compulsory on a perm without extra proofs of passage?

Replace 'Brevidence' with GPS tracks/automated track validation.

Billy Weir

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2011, 12:49:51 pm »

I've got it in my skull that the route is advisory for a calendar event and mandatory for a perm. I don't know why I think this, is it wrong?

You are wrong, though I'd like to see a return to compulsory routes.

but how do you make a route compulsory on a perm without extra proofs of passage?

Replace 'Brevidence' with GPS tracks/automated track validation.

Be accompanied by an AUK official at all times.

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2011, 06:48:07 pm »
Is the whole bridge out? definitely no temporary footpath/bridleway alternative?
As far as  I know it;s out. It;s being demolished and they can't connect the new one until the old one has been removed. It's a real pisser because this is the alternative to the other one that they demolished a year or so ago. Of course once the road has been upgraded to motorway there will be a very suitable alertnative for cyclists and it out to be possible to design a out and back route  with route sheet that reads something like this

0 right out of control
100 retrace to start.
200 left into control


Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2011, 09:18:57 am »
......................... though I'd like to see a return to compulsory routes. ...........
Just out of interest, why?

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2011, 11:37:55 am »
There'd be a better chance of finding a distressed/injured rider within half a mile, for a start.

3peaker

  • RRTY Mad 32 up
Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2011, 01:11:45 pm »
Under many circumstances, the odd ‘Road Closed’ sign is a challenge, as road folk often create a pedestrian route, which is quite passable by walking or slow cycling.  So, when you do not know about a diversion, then you will have to wait for the rider to advise you of his ‘extra distance’ and authorise the longer route accordingly.  Now, if it is something major (your Bridge) and you know about it, then I think it an Organiser’s responsibility to let potential riders know what the problem is and any suggested remedial/alternate solutions, other than wait for the problem to clear (new bridge).
SteveP

Promoting : Cheltenham Flyer 200, Cider with Rosie 150, Character Coln 100 21 Mar 20. (Suspended 16 Mar 20 on AUK advice)

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2011, 01:50:43 pm »
......................... though I'd like to see a return to compulsory routes. ...........
Just out of interest, why?

Because the reasons for changing, not that long ago, were - in my opinion - spurious.

Jaded

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Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2011, 02:30:24 pm »
Whilst I can understand the suggestion that an Organiser could let riders know of potential road works, it would be far too onerous, surely, to expect them to know of all roadworks. The latter would only be possible if a route check was done before each time the Perm was entered. The former requires the Organiser to hold/manage another dataset and remember to inform riders of it.

They are volunteers, after all.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2011, 04:40:33 pm »
Just out of interest where is this problem bridge. It's not near Carlisle is it?

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2011, 07:35:21 pm »
Just out of interest where is this problem bridge. It's not near Carlisle is it?
no near Londonderry, over the A1 in North Yorkshire.

DanialW

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2011, 08:08:54 pm »
Surely your riders should tell you before they set off anyway? Would that not be the time to tell them?

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2011, 08:21:20 pm »
It's a Permanent, you don't when they will ride it . The bridge might be fixed when they get to do the ride. there's bound to be an easy local diversion for pedestrians which a cyclist could use.

DanialW

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2011, 08:44:29 pm »
It's a Permanent, you don't when they will ride it . The bridge might be fixed when they get to do the ride. there's bound to be an easy local diversion for pedestrians which a cyclist could use.

Yes, which is why they should let you know the day they intend to ride.

Martin

Re: Roadworks and perm routesheets - a debate
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2011, 08:46:04 pm »
It's a Permanent, you don't when they will ride it . The bridge might be fixed when they get to do the ride. there's bound to be an easy local diversion for pedestrians which a cyclist could use.

Yes, which is why they should let you know the day they intend to ride.

and if they are not contactable other than by post? can a rider bung a letter in the post the night before?