Author Topic: Random audax questions  (Read 223101 times)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #975 on: September 10, 2017, 04:50:42 pm »
Thanks.

The website auto-lookup [? icon] fooled me. I guess the org didn't format their code letters correctly, so the webby code chose to only translate "X." I was hoping that "GMT" was some wonderous new facility :P
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #976 on: September 10, 2017, 06:21:58 pm »
It means that this route cannot be ridden between the last Sunday in October and the last Sunday in March.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #977 on: September 25, 2017, 03:04:50 pm »
What are the distances (and therefore closing times) in a brevet card based on? Minimum distance would seem like the obvious thing, but I've definitely done rides where they much more closely match the route sheet. The regulations don't specify this precise point. Is it an organiser discretion thing?

(I'll give the Willy Warmer as an example of not using minimum distance. It has a generous time limit based on a 209 km distance, but it's quite meandering and the minimum distance is definitely much shorter, possibly slightly under 200 km)

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #978 on: September 25, 2017, 03:11:28 pm »
BRM give no extra time for overdistance so closing times are fixed at 13.30, 20.00, 27.00 and 40.00 for 200, 300, 400 and 600 respectively I think.

Otherwise, 2-4 minutes per kilometre for under 600km.

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #979 on: September 25, 2017, 03:23:22 pm »
Otherwise, 2-4 minutes per kilometre for under 600km.

The question is, how is the given kilometreage for each control (and on BRs, the finish) arrived at?

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #980 on: September 25, 2017, 03:46:05 pm »
It used to be the shortest route on AutoRoute.
I think it will now be the shortest walking/cycling distance on modern mapping SatNav software.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #981 on: September 25, 2017, 04:08:21 pm »
For DIYs, the Shortest Distance is determined from Google Maps set to Walking.

(This will sometimes give the 'wrong' answer where it routes over a footpath which is unsuitable for riding, and dragging the route back onto a road is generally considered OK, the route-shaping point not being considered a formal control.)

So I'd expect the same to be true for any new Cal events too.

Historic events which were planned long before mapping software will have distances measured manually from paper maps.  Some of them would not pass muster if they were proposed today, I expect. I had some bother trying to re-create some historic routes as DIYs based on the original controls.  They tended to come up under-distance.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #982 on: September 25, 2017, 04:26:28 pm »
Seeing as some events just give a town or village name as a control, rather than a specific point, there could be a couple of kilometres difference between this cafe in the centre and that 24-hour petrol station on the outskirts; so is there any point being terribly accurate?
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #983 on: September 25, 2017, 04:39:16 pm »
Thanks - but I think my question is more about intention than methodology - i.e. Are the numbers on the brevet card even meant to be representative of the distance by shortest route?

(I presume the reality is going to be more along the lines of "Whatever the organiser submits and the AUK bod doesn't object to")

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #984 on: September 25, 2017, 05:52:57 pm »
Are the numbers on the brevet card even meant to be representative of the distance by shortest route?

Yes.

They are calculated from the Shortest Distance to the control, divided by the Max / Min speeds ( typically 30/15kph, but not always ).
The Shortest Distance is assessed as I already described.

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #985 on: September 26, 2017, 12:22:20 am »
Are the numbers on the brevet card even meant to be representative of the distance by shortest route?

Yes.

They are calculated from the Shortest Distance to the control, divided by the Max / Min speeds ( typically 30/15kph, but not always ).
The Shortest Distance is assessed as I already described.

Yes, though sometimes it'll be routesheet distance.

I presume the reality is going to be more along the lines of "Whatever the organiser submits and the AUK bod doesn't object to")

Yes.

As ever, the golden rule is 'thou shall not take the piss.' Organisers are presumed to be not taking the piss, until proven otherwise. So are riders. Mostly.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Random audax questions
« Reply #986 on: September 26, 2017, 08:14:03 am »
(I presume the reality is going to be more along the lines of "Whatever the organiser submits and the AUK bod doesn't object to")

Yes, pretty much.

I would guess some organisers enter route sheet distances rather than minimum distances just so the riders aren't confused by any discrepancy between route sheet and brevet card. In the case of my 200, for which the advisory route is 3km over the minimum distance, that would amount to 12 minutes extra, so not a huge difference anyway.

Since routes are advisory, control times should strictly be based on minimum distances though. (Although as helly notes, finish times in a BRM are fixed regardless of minimum/advisory route distance.)

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #987 on: September 26, 2017, 08:47:44 am »
For overdistance BRM rides there's some adjustment that goes on too, so that the last leg isn't overly short.

Consider a BRM 600 that is 620km by routesheet (or shortest distance, or whatever). There are controls at (routesheet distances) 500km and 580km.

If you take the 15-30kph limits and apply them to the distances without considering the total distance you get:-

500km = 500/15 = 33h20 + 6am start = 15:20
580km = 580/15 = 38h66 + 6am start = 20:40

Anyone riding to that schedule and scraping in to the last control at 20:35 would be unhappy to find they still have 40km to go and only 1h20 to do it (given the unbending 40h time limit).

If the routesheet distances are factored in you get:-

500km = 40h * 500/620 = 32h15 + 6am start = 14:15
580km = 40h * 580/620 = 37h25 + 6am start = 19:25

So the overdistance aspect is spread out over the whole ride. This explains why such a ride may have a control at 45km but it won't have the first control closing exactly at 9am:-

45km = 40h * 45/620 = 2h54 + 6am start = 8:54
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #988 on: September 26, 2017, 09:12:20 am »
As far as I’m aware the Organisers handbook is silent on whether the distances shown on the Brevet represent the official route or shortest distance. Ideally they would be the same but they never are. As is, the control times published in the Brevet are derived from the registered control distances.

I’ve always taken the view the Brevet distances should match the official routesheet as it what most riders would expect though technically perhaps they should show the actual shortest allowed, but then showing different distances in the brevet and routesheet inevitably generates further confusion and debate, all of which acts to undermine AUK Events and Event Organisers.

The simplest way to resolve this is to list events with published routesheets with (LRM/BRM Compliant) ‘Mandatory' (set) routes. It's the only way to be sure.

I've just emailed my regional event organiser to request the calendar entries for the events I organise to be updated to indicate they have mandatory routes.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #989 on: September 26, 2017, 11:51:02 am »
As far as I’m aware the Organisers handbook is silent on whether the distances shown on the Brevet represent the official route or shortest distance.

It is indeed somewhat vague on this matter.

Quote
I've just emailed my regional event organiser to request the calendar entries for the events I organise to be updated to indicate they have mandatory/set routes.

Interesting. I didn't know that was an option.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #990 on: October 02, 2017, 10:31:47 am »
It's an option but I guess then you as Organiser have to satisfy yourself (and ultimately AUK) that your riders are indeed following the prescribed route.  I think at the very least you would need to add an advice to the top of the routesheet:
YOU SHOULD FOLLOW THIS ROUTE AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE
or some such, possibly worded more strongly.  Of course it helps if you have a bullet-proof route (unusual these days, when there is so much avoidance of main roads) and if you don't, you might want to mount a secret control.   Or some other means of checking, such as GPS tracklog inspection.  All sounds too much?  Hence endless strings of ghastly Info controls.

As far as I’m aware the Organisers handbook is silent on whether the distances shown on the Brevet represent the official route or shortest distance. Ideally they would be the same but they never are. As is, the control times published in the Brevet are derived from the registered control distances.

I’ve always taken the view the Brevet distances should match the official routesheet as it what most riders would expect though technically perhaps they should show the actual shortest allowed, but then showing different distances in the brevet and routesheet inevitably generates further confusion and debate, all of which acts to undermine AUK Events and Event Organisers.

You'd need an online route sheet generator (similar to the way Google Maps, RWGPS etc generate route instructions) obviously tailored to cyclists' idiosyncrasies, which would then drive the intermediate distances on the brevet card, which in turn drives the opening and closing times**.  Although the standardisation would be welcome in some ways, I think we'd lose more than we gain, because I always found the differing route sheet styles to be part of the pleasure of audaxing.

** as you say, you enter the distance and the times are generated - though I suspect some organisers don't notice that it is possible to edit these times if you don't want them slavishly following the distance.  For example if your first control is a cafe 40km down the road, and you know it doesn't open until 09:30, then it's pointless really to have the control box opening at 09:20, and much neater to edit it in the Planner rather than altering the time with a pen on each card as I have often seen done.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #991 on: October 02, 2017, 12:28:14 pm »
It's an option but I guess then you as Organiser have to satisfy yourself (and ultimately AUK) that your riders are indeed following the prescribed route.  I think at the very least you would need to add an advice to the top of the routesheet:
YOU SHOULD FOLLOW THIS ROUTE AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE
or some such, possibly worded more strongly. 

That assumes riders read the route sheet / rider notes, of course. :)

ISTM that secret controls are rather obsolete nowadays. Much simpler just to keep an eye out on social media for riders banging on publically about not following the published route without a good and valid reason, i.e., one which the org agrees with**, then DQ 'em.

Think of the hours of online fun that will generate!


* and its worth noting that where appropriate Orgs include alternate route options on the route sheet to allow for varying road/weather conditions.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #992 on: October 02, 2017, 01:11:36 pm »
I'm sure I've even seen some to cater for differing tolerances of main roads.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #993 on: October 02, 2017, 02:29:52 pm »
What happens if a shop or cafe till clock is off and it shows the riders as being too early or too late at an intermediate control on a perm/diy/x rated ride?
   Eddington  87 miles

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #994 on: October 02, 2017, 06:51:46 pm »
Well if it's showing the right date I'd say that is a bonus.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #995 on: October 02, 2017, 07:01:38 pm »
ISTM that secret controls are rather obsolete nowadays. Much simpler just to keep an eye out on social media for riders banging on publically about not following the published route without a good and valid reason, i.e., one which the org agrees with**, then DQ 'em.

Think of the hours of online fun that will generate!
I'd bet that most infringements - at least in the early days - will be due to GPS users following "illegal" tracks that didn't come with any warning from their creators.
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #996 on: October 02, 2017, 08:20:45 pm »
ISTM that secret controls are rather obsolete nowadays. Much simpler just to keep an eye out on social media for riders banging on publically about not following the published route without a good and valid reason, i.e., one which the org agrees with**, then DQ 'em.

Think of the hours of online fun that will generate!
I'd bet that most infringements - at least in the early days - will be due to GPS users following "illegal" tracks that didn't come with any warning from their creators.

Caveat Emptor!

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #997 on: October 03, 2017, 04:15:48 pm »
Now I'm really confused  ???
I thought it was perfectly acceptable to choose any route between controls as long as it's not a Mandatory route event?
Audax Ecosse - always going too far

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #998 on: October 03, 2017, 04:24:31 pm »
I think it is for distance. AAA may be another matter.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #999 on: October 03, 2017, 04:34:50 pm »
Now I'm really confused  ???
I thought it was perfectly acceptable to choose any route between controls as long as it's not a Mandatory route event?

yes indeed.

My post was a bit opaque - there was an unwritten intro: "In the case of Mandatory Routes ... "
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles