Author Topic: Random audax questions  (Read 175551 times)

dim

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1025 on: January 28, 2018, 08:31:30 pm »
Mandatory route events mean exactly that. Most events are advisory routes, so you can use whatever roads you like that get you to the controls within their time limits.

thank you
“No great mind has ever existed without a touch of madness.” - Aristotle

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1026 on: February 18, 2018, 05:57:30 pm »
What's the procedural difference between instant validation events where you take your card home, and the ones where you get your card back in the post?
2017 - R500 ✅ | 2018 - R1000 ✅ | 2019 - ?

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1027 on: February 18, 2018, 06:27:04 pm »
From the organiser's handbook, organisers can offer it if:

Quote
- Your event is 200km or less (and not BRM)
- You use the Start/Finish List to submit your results online, and
- You have a previous record of prompt and accurate submission of results.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1028 on: February 18, 2018, 06:45:25 pm »
Something that just came up on Facebook ...

Where did the idea of a fixed set-of-checkpoints (or fixed route ) come in/from? As opposed to merely a fixed distance betwixt Dawn And Dusk. Was it purely an Henri Desgrange idea?

I've flicked through the usual historical documents, and we seemed to leap from this:
Quote
THE IDEA OF AUDAX was first formulated in 1897 in Italy. One had to swim, run, walk, or cycle a set distance in 14 hours which was approximately the time between sunrise and sunset. The distance to be covered by cycling was 200 kilometres.

... to this ...

Quote
IN 1904 Henri Desgrange - the managing director of the magazine Auto visited Italy and was so impressed with the idea that he produced some regulations. These Audax regulations formed cyclists into groups, each with its captain, which stayed together for the entire ride. This method of riding is known today as Euraudax.
Now I'm not even sure if the Desgrange regs did specify fixed route? Can someone confirm?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1029 on: February 19, 2018, 12:23:05 pm »
I'm planning my first DIY, it's a circular route and I was wondering if I have to ride it in the direction I have plotted the route that I submit or can I ride it opposite way around? Thinking about a tailwind home here...

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1030 on: February 19, 2018, 12:44:04 pm »
Nope.  As submitted only.  But if you're confident your route is the right distance then entering online the night before (or even the morning of) the ride means you can pick which one to do.

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1031 on: February 19, 2018, 12:51:47 pm »
Thanks Chris,

Thought that might be the case, i didn't realise it was possible to enter a DIY at such short notice - are the DIY validators OK with that?

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1032 on: February 19, 2018, 01:01:49 pm »
In my experience, yes.  If you want feedback on your route then give them a bit more notice.  But in theory you can enter any time you like as long as it's before you start riding.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1033 on: February 19, 2018, 04:09:56 pm »
Something that just came up on Facebook ...

Where did the idea of a fixed set-of-checkpoints (or fixed route ) come in/from? As opposed to merely a fixed distance betwixt Dawn And Dusk. Was it purely an Henri Desgrange idea?

I've flicked through the usual historical documents, and we seemed to leap from this:
Quote
THE IDEA OF AUDAX was first formulated in 1897 in Italy. One had to swim, run, walk, or cycle a set distance in 14 hours which was approximately the time between sunrise and sunset. The distance to be covered by cycling was 200 kilometres.

... to this ...

Quote
IN 1904 Henri Desgrange - the managing director of the magazine Auto visited Italy and was so impressed with the idea that he produced some regulations. These Audax regulations formed cyclists into groups, each with its captain, which stayed together for the entire ride. This method of riding is known today as Euraudax.
Now I'm not even sure if the Desgrange regs did specify fixed route? Can someone confirm?

The first Audax Italiano rides were point-to-point (the first was Naples-Rome, about 230km), ridden as a group with a captain setting the pace of the group to complete the route within the allowable time. The first French Audax brevets were much the same but more formalised and with loop courses becoming the norm. I'm not sure if the Italians stuck with point-to-point routes or also went to 'big loop' routes. I thought it was the French, not the Italians, who added other activities to the cycling brevets (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1200.0 gives the years each activity was introduced) but I've been wrong plenty of times before.

The French routesheets had specific times at each turn, which would be difficult to do without a fixed route. The routes were along the main roads (with the best surfaces to ride on) and were generally the shortest distance between those points. If there was a problem, it was the captain's responsibility to reroute the group around the problem. I think that the modern understanding of a mandatory route matches the historical format pretty well.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1034 on: February 19, 2018, 04:15:23 pm »
you can enter any time you like as long as it's before you start riding.

You may need to check what your DIY Org finds acceptable (if it's me, any time before you actually set off is ok to put your entry in, as long as you're not wanting any feedback - as Chris says).

You should get an auto-reply to confirm that your entry did actually go in. If that doesn't come, try again (you may have failed to click "submit", eg).

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1035 on: February 19, 2018, 04:45:38 pm »
Eminently sensible - thanks Tony. :thumbsup:

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1036 on: February 20, 2018, 10:17:22 am »
Thanks both,

A couple of route tweaks and I'll be giving it a go!

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Virtual Alps
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1037 on: February 20, 2018, 11:02:39 am »
Quote
IN 1904 Henri Desgrange - the managing director of the magazine Auto visited Italy and was so impressed with the idea that he produced some regulations. These Audax regulations formed cyclists into groups, each with its captain, which stayed together for the entire ride. This method of riding is known today as Euraudax.
Now I'm not even sure if the Desgrange regs did specify fixed route? Can someone confirm?

I would suggest the fact that there is a captain and everyone else has to stay with heavily implies a fixed route, even if it is only inside the captain's head.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1038 on: February 20, 2018, 02:45:37 pm »
<snippage>
...
Quote
IN 1904 Henri Desgrange - the managing director of the magazine Auto visited Italy and was so impressed with the idea that he produced some regulations. These Audax regulations formed cyclists into groups, each with its captain, which stayed together for the entire ride. This method of riding is known today as Euraudax.
Now I'm not even sure if the Desgrange regs did specify fixed route? Can someone confirm?

I would suggest the fact that there is a captain and everyone else has to stay with heavily implies a fixed route, even if it is only inside the captain's head.

I don't think so; you're probably inferring that, from decades of riding modern "audax" events :)

there are numerous possible variations;
- you could have pure exploration; like sea captains leaving Gibraltar to head West until they find *something*. Or
- a captain with appaling navigation skills, or
- a captain so supremely confident in his ability that he expects to find the destination from road-signs and a compass/sun. Or
- a captain with backup plans; perhaps planning a mountainous route with low-level options for bad weather.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1039 on: February 20, 2018, 02:56:51 pm »
Proper Audax was and is ridden to a schedule. The routesheets published before the event have schedule times (to the minute) for each turn. You can't do that unless the route is fixed.

Audax routes were typically the major roads because they were the best surfaced (important in the days before asphalt) and had virtually no motor traffic. Similarly, the Great North Road (A1) and Portsmouth Road (A3) in England were some of the major British cycling routes before World War 1. PBP Randonneur was mostly routed on major roads until the 1970s, when some PBPers were killed by motor vehicles. PBP Audax stayed on big roads for a while afterwards (group riding and follow vehicles reduced the risk somewhat) but today is routed almost entirely on more minor roads.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1040 on: February 20, 2018, 05:33:24 pm »
Proper Audax was and is ridden to a schedule. The routesheets published before the event have schedule times (to the minute) for each turn. You can't do that unless the route is fixed.

Audax routes were typically the major roads because they were the best surfaced (important in the days before asphalt) and had virtually no motor traffic. Similarly, the Great North Road (A1) and Portsmouth Road (A3) in England were some of the major British cycling routes before World War 1. PBP Randonneur was mostly routed on major roads until the 1970s, when some PBPers were killed by motor vehicles. PBP Audax stayed on big roads for a while afterwards (group riding and follow vehicles reduced the risk somewhat) but today is routed almost entirely on more minor roads.
Believe me, I'm  not disputing any of that!!!

But the above is all about recent times - I'm interested in events before and/or around 1904.

I suspect the answer is that we have very few records from those times, so it's a moot point. (We need a Dave Barter to scrutinise the written record properly ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1041 on: February 20, 2018, 06:21:29 pm »
Audax before 1904 wasn't formalised. Only Audax Italiano existed then and I'm not sure exactly what happened with them or how they ran or recorded things.

Once Audax Club Parisien was formed in 1904, then the whole circus started, with brevet cards, routesheets and everything else. Have a look at Jacques Seray's PBP books or Bernard Deon's UAF book (in French) for pictures of early brevet cards and routesheets. There hasn't been very much in the way of change since Audax began. Changes in maximum time for a 200km brevet of 14 hrs or 13.5 hrs is just fiddling round the edges; the basic concept hasn't noticeably changed.

The reason the ACP and other country's BRMs have mandatory routes now was because they grew out of Audax pre-1921 which also had mandatory routes. Pre-1931, Audax brevets were ridden at 18 kph between scheduled rest stops. The first PBP brevets were in 1931 and PBP31 Audax was ridden at 20 kph. The UAF 22.5 kph riding average came in after World War 2. Other than adding new awards every few decades and a couple of new brevet types (Fleche Velocio and Super Randonnee 600), the ACP have changed remarkably little over the years.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1042 on: February 20, 2018, 07:47:20 pm »
Dave, thanks for your input  :thumbsup:

I'm sort of reading these replies back to front, and responding haphazardly; so I shall re-read your post referenced below properly, as it seems to contain some extra relevant info (and I failed to find it before asking my originial query):

The first Audax Italiano rides were point-to-point (the first was Naples-Rome, about 230km), ridden as a group with a captain setting the pace of the group to complete the route within the allowable time. The first French Audax brevets were much the same but more formalised and with loop courses becoming the norm. I'm not sure if the Italians stuck with point-to-point routes or also went to 'big loop' routes. I thought it was the French, not the Italians, who added other activities to the cycling brevets (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1200.0 gives the years each activity was introduced) but I've been wrong plenty of times before.

The French routesheets had specific times at each turn, which would be difficult to do without a fixed route. The routes were along the main roads (with the best surfaces to ride on) and were generally the shortest distance between those points. If there was a problem, it was the captain's responsibility to reroute the group around the problem. I think that the modern understanding of a mandatory route matches the historical format pretty well.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1043 on: March 12, 2018, 05:52:23 pm »
Is this a mistake on the AUK website?

http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#055

BRM (Brevets de Randonneurs Mondiaux) events are run all around the world under the standard set of rules laid down by the ACP (Audax Club Parisien) and the rides are validated and recorded by them.  They are at standard distances, with a maximum of 5% over distance, and the maximum time limits for each distance is:
200km        14h30
   <Should this be 13h30?
2017 - R500 ✅ | 2018 - R1000 ✅ | 2019 - ?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1044 on: March 12, 2018, 06:54:51 pm »
Yes, it should be 13.5 hours.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1045 on: March 12, 2018, 07:06:56 pm »
I thought I was going mad because that's what the event listings say!

Is the webperson On Here or should I send an email via the website?
2017 - R500 ✅ | 2018 - R1000 ✅ | 2019 - ?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1046 on: March 12, 2018, 07:09:01 pm »
Via the website is probably best.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1047 on: March 26, 2018, 04:05:21 pm »
Me again.

(For calendar events) If the routesheet specifies a particular cafe for a control but there are other shops/pubs etc nearby (as in on the same street), can you get a receipt from elsewhere and use this as PoP?
2017 - R500 ✅ | 2018 - R1000 ✅ | 2019 - ?

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1048 on: March 26, 2018, 04:05:43 pm »
Via the website is probably best.

This has now been fixed.
2017 - R500 ✅ | 2018 - R1000 ✅ | 2019 - ?

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1049 on: March 26, 2018, 06:42:29 pm »
Me again.

(For calendar events) If the routesheet specifies a particular cafe for a control but there are other shops/pubs etc nearby (as in on the same street), can you get a receipt from elsewhere and use this as PoP?

Are we talking a manned control or a "get a receipt" control?

The audax regs imply any form of PoP is acceptable. I think the organiser might raise an eyebrow if you don't have a stamp from a manned control, although I think they'd have to be very grumpy to refuse validation.

(I personally don't believe there's any obligation to buy something in a manned control if you want to eat elsewhere, if that's what the worry is)