Author Topic: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.  (Read 25075 times)

Julian

  • samoture
Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« on: March 22, 2011, 01:18:20 pm »
Beeb report here.

I had a quick blog about it here

Depressing.

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
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Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 01:21:08 pm »
Have you sent that to the MP in question?
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Pingu

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Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 01:22:08 pm »
Quote
The Conservative MP said: "Imagine if a motorist had mounted the pavement and killed a schoolgirl as she chatted to her friends.

"The motorist would have felt the full force of the law and there would have been a national outcry if such a person had walked away with a fine."

That's taking the piss.

Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 01:26:05 pm »
ISTR that when the cyclist hit the girl, she was on the road, not the pavement.

My construction on this case, having read around it, is that a bunch of teenagers, possibly drunk, was milling about half on the pavement and half on the road, and possibly even playing chicken with the approaching cyclist.

We've all seen that.
The journey is always more important than the destination

Si_Co

Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 01:27:55 pm »
Quote
Mrs Leadsom's Bill is expected to propose that deaths caused by cyclists should be treated in a similar way to those caused by motorists or motorcyclists

So that would be the charge reduced to careless cycling and a fine then.........yes?

Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 01:31:35 pm »
Quote
Mrs Leadsom's Bill is expected to propose that deaths caused by cyclists should be treated in a similar way to those caused by motorists or motorcyclists

So that would be the charge reduced to careless cycling and a fine then.........yes?

Ah! Smack on the wrist and a fine of about two days' pay. That'll stop the b@st@rds!
The journey is always more important than the destination

Julian

  • samoture
Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 01:32:25 pm »
Have you sent that to the MP in question?

No, and I don't intend to.  It's not her fault she's got Angry Bereaved Warpath Parents in her constituency.  I'll send it to my own and circulate it if it gets any further than today.

RJ

  • Droll rat
Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 01:32:59 pm »
Beeb report here.

I had a quick blog about it here

Depressing.

Concise blog entry, putting sentencing into perspective.  

It seems clear from some of the earlier reporting that the CPS considered other charges, of which manslaughter would have been an option, but settled for "dangerous cycling".  I guess the level of fine within the relevant band will have reflected the outcome ...

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Beds/Bucks/Herts | Death cyclist fine angers family

fuzzy (retd.) AAGE

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Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 01:34:50 pm »
I think the campaigning should be for tougher sentencing for ANYONE who cause the death of another in a case where they are proved negligent.
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Julian

  • samoture
Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 01:35:57 pm »
ISTR that when the cyclist hit the girl, she was on the road, not the pavement.

My construction on this case, having read around it, is that a bunch of teenagers, possibly drunk, was milling about half on the pavement and half on the road, and possibly even playing chicken with the approaching cyclist.

We've all seen that.

I've checked the old reports and you're right, she was on the road.  It doesn't excuse him - he could and should have slowed down - but it does make the MP factually inaccurate.

Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 01:37:34 pm »
ISTR that when the cyclist hit the girl, she was on the road, not the pavement.

My construction on this case, having read around it, is that a bunch of teenagers, possibly drunk, was milling about half on the pavement and half on the road, and possibly even playing chicken with the approaching cyclist.

We've all seen that.

Yes, she was in the road. I remember the cyclist's lawyer alluded to behaviour on the part of the gang of youths that made the cyclist wary. I don't know what I'd do if a gang of youths did that pretend-to-block-your-way thing.


her_welshness

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Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2011, 01:39:51 pm »
ISTR that when the cyclist hit the girl, she was on the road, not the pavement.

My construction on this case, having read around it, is that a bunch of teenagers, possibly drunk, was milling about half on the pavement and half on the road, and possibly even playing chicken with the approaching cyclist.

We've all seen that.

Thats what I had read about it.

Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2011, 01:40:31 pm »
ISTR that when the cyclist hit the girl, she was on the road, not the pavement.

My construction on this case, having read around it, is that a bunch of teenagers, possibly drunk, was milling about half on the pavement and half on the road, and possibly even playing chicken with the approaching cyclist.

We've all seen that.

I've checked the old reports and you're right, she was on the road.  It doesn't excuse him - he could and should have slowed down - but it does make the MP factually inaccurate.

There appears to be some doubt:-

Quote
Howard was cycling on the road when he approached the group but the court heard conflicting evidence about whether he mounted the kerb at any point during the incident.

Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2011, 01:42:59 pm »
I don't know what I'd do if a gang of youths did that pretend-to-block-your-way thing.

Maintaining or increasing your speed is the natural thing to do if threatened.  Depending on their age and scariness, possibly also aiming your front wheel at the king chicken.

Slowing down or stopping to chat would be the very last thing I would do.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2011, 01:45:45 pm »
Two, ten or a thousand wrongs don't make right.
The cyclist in the case of the OP may have acted like a pillock.
The drivers cited in Julian's blog were also inadequately punished.
Laws need to be enforced properly and breaches properly punished after due process.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
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Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2011, 01:46:54 pm »
Email sent to MP.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2011, 01:47:46 pm »
I recall being told that a member of this forum was applauded by police officers for riding at and scattering drunken youths in late-night Brecon.

CrinklyLion

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Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2011, 01:55:07 pm »
Two, ten or a thousand wrongs don't make right.
The cyclist in the case of the OP may have acted like a pillock.
The drivers cited in Julian's blog were also inadequately punished.
Laws need to be enforced properly and breaches properly punished after due process.

This, exactly.  I can't comment on the specific cases, because I don't have anywhere near enough information to make an informed comment, but I find it stunning that as a society we accept deaths on our roads as 'just one of those things' so easily.  I think it is entirely reasonable that in that vanishingly small number of cases where a cyclist causes the death of a pedestrian, they be treated/investigated/charged/sentenced in a manner equivalent to the way a driver would be treated etc in a comparable incident. 

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2011, 01:59:50 pm »
Disturbing.
Getting there...

Salvatore

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Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2011, 02:14:41 pm »
I recall being told that a member of this forum was applauded by police officers for riding at and scattering drunken youths in late-night Brecon.
Except they didn't scatter and there was a very low-speed collision.

The officer expressed regret that I didn't have Boudicca-style blades affixed to my pedals.
Quote
et avec John, excellent lecteur de road-book, on s'en est sortis sans erreur

mattc

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Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2011, 02:19:44 pm »
I was speaking to a Mersey 24H vet this morning - he and a competitor were once shot (with air rifle) while racing through Prestatyn at night.

( Has anyone been shot at while driving through Wales? )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
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Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2011, 02:25:58 pm »
I think it is entirely reasonable that in that vanishingly small number of cases where a cyclist causes the death of a pedestrian, they be treated/investigated/charged/sentenced in a manner equivalent to the way a driver would be treated etc in a comparable incident.

I agree. However, two pedestrians were separately killed crossing the same bit of road just a few weeks apart. The first was hit by a driver who got a £300 fine and notional points, the second by a cyclist who got a £2600 fine.

If anything we should be arguing that the sentences given to cyclists who kill are far too severe and should be lessened. Certainly it seems perverse to expend legislative effort punishing them even more harshly while killer drivers are being fined pocket change - if they are even prosecuted at all.

I'd not make an argument about the absolute level of fines handed out in either case. Frankly it seems to me that anyone who kills through obscene negligence should be getting a far more severe punishment than either drivers or cyclists would get under this or any other proposed legislation. BUT I certainly can't support anything which sees cyclists already getting multiples of the driving punishment and which seeks to increase that.

Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2011, 02:52:55 pm »
I don't know what I'd do if a gang of youths did that pretend-to-block-your-way thing.

Maintaining or increasing your speed is the natural thing to do if threatened.  Depending on their age and scariness, possibly also aiming your front wheel at the king chicken.

Slowing down or stopping to chat would be the very last thing I would do.

That's the problem. Obnoxious youths ahead; first reaction, get through and away from them as soon as possible to avoid at best, abuse, and at worst, attack. Problem is, they may not be as sober as you or have such quick reactions.
The journey is always more important than the destination

sigod

  • Commuter Proof
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Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2011, 03:00:27 pm »
I think the campaigning should be for tougher sentencing for ANYONE who cause the death of another in a case where they are proved negligent.
+1
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clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Penalties for death by dangerous cycling.
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2011, 03:04:28 pm »
Yes.  Unequivocally
Getting there...