Powered Two wheelers in Cycle Lanes

[nuttycyclist]

I've been away on holidays, and amongst countries I visited were Denmark/Sweden/Norway/etc.

One thing that struck me was that the dedicated segregated cycle lanes** were also used quite extensively by powered two wheelers. 

I thought that was an excellent idea, especially in Stockholm where I was walking during rush hour and the bicycles and scooters were whizzing past me in the bike lane whilst the cars were nose to tail gridlocked in 2 lanes.    Had I had two wheels there I'd have loved to have joined them rather than have to try to filter through a non-existent gap between the traffic lanes.


The call here so often re "facilities" and other schemes is that "it works in Europe so we should do it here".   Hear Hear!   Let's allow powered two wheelers into our bike lanes too










** (more on those later once written)

[tiermat]

The call here so often re "facilities" and other schemes is that "it works in Europe so we should do it here".   Hear Hear!   Let's allow powered two wheelers into our bike lanes too

They do already, in Stevenage at any rate...

[Adrian]

   Let's allow powered two wheelers into our bike lanes too

Except perhaps <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ByemtRt_CP0&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/ByemtRt_CP0&rel=1</a>

[nuttycyclist]

That's a bicycle Adrian - I can see the pedals.

[Gattopardo]

I've been away on holidays, and amongst countries I visited were Denmark/Sweden/Norway/etc.

One thing that struck me was that the dedicated segregated cycle lanes** were also used quite extensively by powered two wheelers. 

I thought that was an excellent idea, especially in Stockholm where I was walking during rush hour and the bicycles and scooters were whizzing past me in the bike lane whilst the cars were nose to tail gridlocked in 2 lanes.    Had I had two wheels there I'd have loved to have joined them rather than have to try to filter through a non-existent gap between the traffic lanes.


The call here so often re "facilities" and other schemes is that "it works in Europe so we should do it here".   Hear Hear!   Let's allow powered two wheelers into our bike lanes too










** (more on those later once written)

Ahh enlightenment.

[Mrs Pingu]

I beg to differ, nutty.
Many of the cycle lanes we used in Belgium were very narrow and effectively a narrow strip of pavement.
Having a scooter racing up behind you who you don't know is there until you can hear the whining right in your ear, combined with them trying to barge past you on a too thin lane is not particularly pleasant.

[nuttycyclist]

...
Ahh enlightenment.

(You'll note I've always been pro-PTW in bus lanes     this is just extending my beliefs to tie in with what's been seen abroad)

[nuttycyclist]

I beg to differ, nutty.
Many of the cycle lanes we used in Belgium were very narrow and effectively a narrow strip of pavement.
Having a scooter racing up behind you who you don't know is there until you can hear the whining right in your ear, combined with them trying to barge past you on a too thin lane is not particularly pleasant.

As a pedestrian I hated being passed by the bicycles in these narrow lanes and was nearly hit a few times.

However, nearly hit counts as nothing.  I was not hit.  And the powered bikes were no different.   I think I might write to young Boris and see if he wants to trial this in London.

[Spikey]

Never had a problem on either the severn or the avon-mouth motorway bridges, both of which allow non-motorway PTWs on the cycle/footway.

As for cycle lanes on the road, PTWs are much less of a problem than cars, lorrys and buses!

And fpor off-road cycle tracks, I would much rather tollerate the ocaisional PTW, than have to cope with the nearly impassable (with trailer or trailer bike) iron work. While I accept that you will always get ocaisional idiots on PTWs, they are not any worse than those on MTBs or drunken pedestrians.

I suppose the problem is that if you allow small mopeds, you will inevitably get the ocasional idiot trying to do 70+ on a super-bike with potentially lethal results.

[Zipperhead]

Two full sized (ie, not ex-car driving scooter riders) wanted to go in the bus lane here this morning. They couldn't as there was a bus in the way (his path was blocked by cars), so they both went up onto the pavement to get  past it.

[Regulator]

I beg to differ, nutty.
Many of the cycle lanes we used in Belgium were very narrow and effectively a narrow strip of pavement.
Having a scooter racing up behind you who you don't know is there until you can hear the whining right in your ear, combined with them trying to barge past you on a too thin lane is not particularly pleasant.

My experience in both Belgium and the Netherlands.

'Sfunny aint it.  It seems to be those with PTWs who are so keen on changes being made.  Perhaps declarations of interest should be made in such discussions...

[Gattopardo]

I beg to differ, nutty.
Many of the cycle lanes we used in Belgium were very narrow and effectively a narrow strip of pavement.
Having a scooter racing up behind you who you don't know is there until you can hear the whining right in your ear, combined with them trying to barge past you on a too thin lane is not particularly pleasant.

My experience in both Belgium and the Netherlands.

'Sfunny aint it.  It seems to be those with PTWs who are so keen on changes being made.  Perhaps declarations of interest should be made in such discussions...

So do you want a copy of the London bike lanes interim report?

Oh and notice scooter not motorbike.

[blackpuddinonnabike]

I beg to differ, nutty.
Many of the cycle lanes we used in Belgium were very narrow and effectively a narrow strip of pavement.
Having a scooter racing up behind you who you don't know is there until you can hear the whining right in your ear, combined with them trying to barge past you on a too thin lane is not particularly pleasant.

My experience in both Belgium and the Netherlands.

'Sfunny aint it.  It seems to be those with PTWs who are so keen on changes being made.  Perhaps declarations of interest should be made in such discussions...

So do you want a copy of the London bike lanes interim report?

Oh and notice scooter not motorbike.

Lynx, is there any chance I could? That said, it would be for forming the start of an article for citycycling so.....

[Regulator]

I beg to differ, nutty.
Many of the cycle lanes we used in Belgium were very narrow and effectively a narrow strip of pavement.
Having a scooter racing up behind you who you don't know is there until you can hear the whining right in your ear, combined with them trying to barge past you on a too thin lane is not particularly pleasant.

My experience in both Belgium and the Netherlands.

'Sfunny aint it.  It seems to be those with PTWs who are so keen on changes being made.  Perhaps declarations of interest should be made in such discussions...

So do you want a copy of the London bike lanes interim report?

Oh and notice scooter not motorbike.

Sorry?!? Relevance?

[Julian]

I beg to differ, nutty.
Many of the cycle lanes we used in Belgium were very narrow and effectively a narrow strip of pavement.
Having a scooter racing up behind you who you don't know is there until you can hear the whining right in your ear, combined with them trying to barge past you on a too thin lane is not particularly pleasant.

My experience in both Belgium and the Netherlands.

'Sfunny aint it.  It seems to be those with PTWs who are so keen on changes being made.  Perhaps declarations of interest should be made in such discussions...

Declaration of interest:  I do not own a motorbike and have stubbornly resisted getting my licence in the face of much encouragement.

I fully agree with Nutty.

[Julian]

The local feral Yoof ride their mopeds on the pavement, never mind a cycle lane!

[Gattopardo]

The local feral Yoof ride their mopeds on the pavement, never mind a cycle lane!

With no licence thats the only place they can ride.

[Gattopardo]

I beg to differ, nutty.
Many of the cycle lanes we used in Belgium were very narrow and effectively a narrow strip of pavement.
Having a scooter racing up behind you who you don't know is there until you can hear the whining right in your ear, combined with them trying to barge past you on a too thin lane is not particularly pleasant.

My experience in both Belgium and the Netherlands.

'Sfunny aint it.  It seems to be those with PTWs who are so keen on changes being made.  Perhaps declarations of interest should be made in such discussions...

So do you want a copy of the London bike lanes interim report?

Oh and notice scooter not motorbike.

Sorry?!? Relevance?

To what?

Interim report, that TFl mothballed and then reissued the original report about bikes in bus lanes.  The one that even the cyclists on the board had seen.

Or that there is no difference between a scooter and a motorbike.

Oh and those big red things in those lanes are so safe and don't try and intimedate cyclists at all.

[Regulator]

You obviously have a bee in your bonnet.  Perhaps you'd like to come back to me when you've cleared your head.   

[Gattopardo]

You obviously have a bee in your bonnet.  Perhaps you'd like to come back to me when you've cleared your head.   

No bee, but you do seem to have your eyes and mind firmly closed against the truth and reality of PTW is bus lanes.

I have made the offer but will not again.  Your view is your view.  You have a right to view and air your opinion, but when given the chance to read evidence which contradicts the evidence you mention you do not take that oportunity, I and others will draw our own conclusions from that.

[TimO]

I do commute in using the part of the A23 which experimentally allows motorcycles etc to use the bus lane.  I don't see that many cyclists of motor cyclists, since I generally travel late to avoid the busier traffic, however the motor cyclists I have seen don't take an awful lot of care of me, and one damned near did hit me today, not that I think he realised this, as he was busy jumping some red lights ten seconds later.

At peak times I've noticed that as many motorcycles as cycles will often fill the cycle refuge between the lines, where there are advanced stop lines.  Often when I go up into that area, and there is also a motorcyclist there, when the lights change, frequently they will turn left across me, or suddenly realise that I'm not actually going that slowly, and they can't easily do this (often they will not have been indicating).

This is more a case of bad road use, which clearly is not the exclusive province of motorcyclists, most other road users are guilty to various degrees, but it's not particularly pleasant to be waiting at some lights with a motorcyclists sitting next to you, gunning his engine, and you know that he's going to try and turn left across your path when the lights go green.  Of course motorcycles shouldn't be there anyway, but the ones I've seen legally using bus lanes don't seem to be a good demonstration of careful usage, since most of them seem to see it as an excuse to speed along a clear route.

[Notsototalnewbie]

At peak times I've noticed that as many motorcycles as cycles will often fill the cycle refuge between the lines, where there are advanced stop lines.  Often when I go up into that area, and there is also a motorcyclist there, when the lights change, frequently they will turn left across me, or suddenly realise that I'm not actually going that slowly, and they can't easily do this (often they will not have been indicating).

This is more a case of bad road use, which clearly is not the exclusive province of motorcyclists, most other road users are guilty to various degrees, but it's not particularly pleasant to be waiting at some lights with a motorcyclists sitting next to you, gunning his engine, and you know that he's going to try and turn left across your path when the lights go green.  Of course motorcycles shouldn't be there anyway, but the ones I've seen legally using bus lanes don't seem to be a good demonstration of careful usage, since most of them seem to see it as an excuse to speed along a clear route.

This is also what happens at Vauxhall. Every single day without fail. Sitting in the ASL surrounded by scooters gunning their engines, just waiting to cut across you. I just love it.

[Regulator]

You obviously have a bee in your bonnet.  Perhaps you'd like to come back to me when you've cleared your head.   

No bee, but you do seem to have your eyes and mind firmly closed against the truth and reality of PTW is bus lanes.

I have made the offer but will not again.  Your view is your view.  You have a right to view and air your opinion, but when given the chance to read evidence which contradicts the evidence you mention you do not take that oportunity, I and others will draw our own conclusions from that.

I have read the evidence and have enough understanding of research design (backed by a Certificate in Statistics from the University of Oxford) to know bad research when I see it.

TfL withdrew the report because they knew it was flawed.  Some people can't accept that and are pushing for changes to be made on poor evidence.  I happen to be against that.

The fact that we disagree is one thing.  Your constant reference to points of disagreement reflects your approach, which I do not believe to be conducive to polite discussion.  If you have a beef with me, then please take it off thread, rather than clogging the threads with your attempts at sarcasm and digs at me personally.

[rae]

but it's not particularly pleasant to be waiting at some lights with a motorcyclists sitting next to you, gunning his engine, and you know that he's going to try and turn left across your path when the lights go green.   

When in such a situation (as I often am on the Balls Pond road), I generally find it helps to make eye contact with the motorcyclist and establish who is going where.   Sometimes I have to wait a fraction of a second, sometimes they do.  It isn't a big deal. 

[clarion]

I would like to see some valid research on the subject before I let my anecdotal evidence decide me.  I probably notice the bad scooteristas more than I do the sensible bikers, but some solid research is long overdue, and that is all that Regulator is suggesting, as far as i can tell.