Author Topic: The end of the road for Landis.  (Read 9777 times)

The end of the road for Landis.
« on: June 27, 2008, 10:18:32 pm »
on Monday 15.00 BST

I still feel a litle bit hurt inside when I think about the depths of deception associated with the whole drugs thing.  And there's still a few of the 'associated' riders around from the Puerto thing...

maybe it'll take this years TdF to finally flush the system?


gonzo

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2008, 07:53:43 pm »
I feel quite sorry for the guy. I suspect that he was on something, but not what they caught him for. It's my conspiracy theory that Lance was untouchable (I guess he took his own samples to cross reference the anti-doping labs results) and the French labs took it out on the next American they could.

He's also given the most magnificent performance that I've ever seen in a bike race on that day he escaped for the entire stage.

He has already declared that he has no intention of returning to the sport so why would he have bankrupted himself to prove himself innocent?

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2008, 08:09:28 pm »
Did anybody else think that perhaps a shirt with horizontal black-and-white stripes was perhaps not the best clothing choice for someone claiming innocence at a trial?
scottclark.photoshelter.com

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2008, 11:37:43 pm »
He's also given the most magnificent performance that I've ever seen in a bike race on that day he escaped for the entire stage.

From what I have seen he didn't ride an exceptional performance, merely a good one, but no one believed he would stay away until too late. He caught them napping with a strong performance.

..d

"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

FatBloke

  • I come from a land up over!
Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2008, 11:41:27 pm »
I feel quite sorry for the guy. I suspect that he was on something, but not what they caught him for. It's my conspiracy theory that Lance was untouchable (I guess he took his own samples to cross reference the anti-doping labs results) and the French labs took it out on the next American they could.

He's also given the most magnificent performance that I've ever seen in a bike race on that day he escaped for the entire stage.

He has already declared that he has no intention of returning to the sport so why would he have bankrupted himself to prove himself innocent?
Gonzo, your niaivety astounds me.  :-\
This isn't just a thousand to one shot. This is a professional blood sport. It can happen to you. And it can happen again.

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2008, 11:49:43 pm »
Oh, it was an amazing performance.

Juiced to the gills, but nevertheless a mighty ride.  Best hour of bike telly I've enjoyed in years - since the old Lemond/Hinault cat and mouse climbs. 

The disappointment was as huge.  But that doesn't detract from the performance.

Are we starting a sweepstake on who's going to get kicked out for gobbling down the Astana beans this year?
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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gonzo

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2008, 09:40:53 am »
Gonzo, your niaivety astounds me.  :-\

All the debates have been held numerous times before, but I've yet to see any argument as to why he would take an incredibly obvious and easily tested drug that has questionable performance improvement.

Rapples

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2008, 09:54:05 am »
He was doping and he got caught - just not for what he was doing though. :o

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2008, 10:08:48 am »

All the debates have been held numerous times before, but I've yet to see any argument as to why he would take an incredibly obvious and easily tested drug that has questionable performance improvement.

Possibly because he took it at that time by accident. Maybe as a byproduct of blood boosting with his own stored blood that had been taken at a time when he was using the testosterone to aid recovery in training.

Just a theory of course.
[Quote/]Adrian, you're living proof that bandwidth is far too cheap.[/Quote]

gonzo

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2008, 10:25:40 am »
Just a theory of course.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten that one, but it seems the only plausible option.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2008, 11:10:47 am »
The argument is whether the tests that were peformed are valid, and what degree of certainty one is prepared to accept.

Lets be clear on two things.

1. This is not CSI. You do not feed a sample into a machine and have a big flashing sign and klaxon saying 'GUILTY'. The tests are complex and require careful interpretation and validation. 

2. The process followed MUST give confidence that the complex tests have been performed in a reliable and reproducible manner.

The evidence provided indicates that the process was severely lacking. The debate is whether that is sufficient to compromise the results obtained. This then requires a very detailed technical examination of the raw data by those who are competent to assess the validity.

If the test is not valid (ie if there is insufficient confidence in the test) then he cannot be proved to have doped and should be exonerated.

I would claim to be marginally competent to examine the data (with a background in experimental science including protein mass spec.) Mrs Pingu is probably also competent. As far as others go, I am not sure.

..d

 
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2008, 03:28:01 pm »
It's also complicated by the fact that doping in pro sport is a criminal offence (like fraud) in France, which makes it all a whole lot hotter.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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Seineseeker

  • Biting the cherry of existential delight
    • The Art of Pleisure
Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2008, 05:19:57 pm »
Well I am not going to go over any of the facts or debate as it has been had many times before.

Gonzo's point about being sorry for him is valid, because getting caught for Testosterone was like a heroin addict testing positive for dope! Doping is (maybe was) endemic in the peloton and failed tests are generally a result of a mistake in the doping procedures the riders take to avoid testing positive, rather than some achievement of the testing procedure. So Landis gets himself loaded for an important stage as all the contendors would, some idiot makes a mistake in his dose or whatever, and before you know it he's tested positive for a dumb drug like testosterone.

Really Ancien

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2008, 05:55:32 pm »
Wasn't one theory that he'd had so much support from the team car that he been able to replace sweating by dowsing with water from bottles and that that had upset the rate at which his body was able to excrete the tell-tale matabolites, concentrating them in his blood and urine.

Damon.

gonzo

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2008, 06:02:49 pm »
Fourty something bottles he got through!

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2008, 06:13:55 pm »
He was doping and he got caught - just not for what he was doing though. :o

Did he? The sample, which in any case produced inconsistent results, was not correctly labelled. There's not even convincing proof it was his.

The old Legion hand told the recruit, "When things are bad, bleu, try not to make them worse, because it is very likely that they are bad enough already." -- Robert Ruark

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2008, 08:27:50 pm »
Fourty something bottles he got through!

Yup, and he didn't just drink them.

If we want to hang someone out to dry as a drugs cheat then we should make sure that it is done properly. Half-assed record keeping and shoddy practices are not acceptable if we want to take the moral high ground.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Really Ancien

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2008, 10:13:13 pm »
Fourty something bottles he got through!

Yup, and he didn't just drink them.

If we want to hang someone out to dry as a drugs cheat then we should make sure that it is done properly. Half-assed record keeping and shoddy practices are not acceptable if we want to take the moral high ground.

..d

I don't think there is a moral high ground, there are a set of rules governing the permitted levels of certain chemicals in the bloodstream at certain times, Landis seems to have discovered an unusual set of circumstances where those chemicals were not flushed out as anticipated, the Doctors have learned something and it won't happen again.

Damon.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2008, 10:16:08 pm »
Fourty something bottles he got through!

Yup, and he didn't just drink them.

If we want to hang someone out to dry as a drugs cheat then we should make sure that it is done properly. Half-assed record keeping and shoddy practices are not acceptable if we want to take the moral high ground.

..d

I don't think there is a moral high ground, there are a set of rules governing the permitted levels of certain chemicals in the bloodstream at certain times, Landis seems to have discovered an unusual set of circumstances where those chemicals were not flushed out as anticipated, the Doctors have learned something and it won't happen again.

Damon.

See my point 1 earlier. This isn't CSI where a big machine flashes guilty. The tests are technically difficult and prone to error. That is why there are specific procedures to follow.

It is not disputed that procedures were not followed. What is in dispute is whether the results of the tests are unreliable because of that.

The presumption of most of the people posting is that the tests are accurate and infallible. The machine goes ping and you win a suspension. It is not like that.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2008, 10:43:32 pm »
I just assume they're all bent and that clever doping is like wind-tunnel time.  It gets rid of the angst.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2008, 10:48:48 pm »
Do you think you could change the title of this thread? Every time I see it I think it's about the imminent demise of the Land Rover production line.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

gonzo

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2008, 08:07:29 am »
I don't think there is a moral high ground, there are a set of rules governing the permitted levels of certain chemicals in the bloodstream at certain times, Landis seems to have discovered an unusual set of circumstances where those chemicals were not flushed out as anticipated, the Doctors have learned something and it won't happen again.

What about Rob Hayles before the world cup?

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2008, 08:22:44 am »
See my point 1 earlier. This isn't CSI where a big machine flashes guilty. The tests are technically difficult and prone to error. That is why there are specific procedures to follow.

It is not disputed that procedures were not followed. What is in dispute is whether the results of the tests are unreliable because of that.

The presumption of most of the people posting is that the tests are accurate and infallible. The machine goes ping and you win a suspension. It is not like that.

Which makes you wonder why they have the procedures, if they can choose to ignore the fact that they have not followed them.

The whole point is that you have a rigorously defined technique, and you follow it to the letter, then no one can argue with the results (or not very easily anyway).

Ho hum, I'm glad it's not my problem.

I do wonder about andygates question earlier:

Are we starting a sweepstake on who's going to get kicked out for gobbling down the Astana beans this year?

For the last couple of years watching Le Tour, I've thought "At least this year it'll be clean", which has then been followed by multiple people being kicked out.  Certainly not all of them have been clean, just due to the numbers, and the fact that some of them have never disputed things.  Depressing n'est pas?  Maybe this year will pass with nothing much happening.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: The end of the road for Landis.
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2008, 06:26:44 pm »
Fourty something bottles he got through!

Yup, and he didn't just drink them.

If we want to hang someone out to dry as a drugs cheat then we should make sure that it is done properly. Half-assed record keeping and shoddy practices are not acceptable if we want to take the moral high ground.

..d

I really don't understand your point - Landis has spent a lot of money (>$1M if rumour is true) to try to demonstrate "half-assed record keeping and shoddy practice" and a bunch of folks with a lot more expertise than anyone on this forum have evaluated the evidence at least three times and concluded that the test results do stand up to scrutiny, and that Landis did indeed take an illegal substance.

He has had multiple opportunities to demonstrate the unsafeness of his conviction, had access to the finest legal minds and subject-matter experts, had unlimited time to present his case, but after due consideration his case has been rejected.

By any reasonable standards you must conclude that he did dope, that he is a cheat and a liar.
"What a long, strange trip it's been", Truckin'